• Serj
  • Serj
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Cincinnati, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,601

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

Evil Genius wrote:

A flux cored (FCAW) is way less likely to pass tech than a proper gas shielded MIG weld.  WAY less: look for probable future rule wording that states that cage welds must be MIG or TIG, no stick, no flux core..   We are seeing simply horrible welds.   

   Just sayin......

I would tend to think MIG, then Stick/Arc welds would be the most preferable methods in doing cage work. Flux simply doesn't do it when it comes to penetration. Yes, it is possible, but it's like using duct tape instead of a nut and bolt. TIG may be the prettiest, but like rob said, it's slow and I'd imagine difficult to do properly in tight clearances and while inverted. I'd take a sloppy but sturdy Stick/Arc cage over just about anything except a properly done MIG cage any day of the week. The point is tight fits, and good penetration.

  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

Serj wrote:

I'd take a sloppy but sturdy Stick/Arc cage over just about anything except a properly done MIG cage any day of the week. The point is tight fits, and good penetration.

The word 'sloppy' here is the problem.  If I see a sloppy, cold, bubbly, stick weld, I'm very likely to fail it. 

      There is a saying that goes something like:  A good looking weld is almost always a strong weld, and an ugly weld could be strong, but is usually not....

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'
  • From: Toronto, Ontario
  • Registered: 2009-05-03
  • Posts: 1,114

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

IMO a lot of poor welds are the result of poor joint preparation. With decent fitup, clean metal and a little chamfer ground where sections are thick any method should make good welds...I once watched a Lincoln trainer take a 70amp 115V AC stick home unit with 1/8 rods and make perfect welds with lots of penetration. Slow though. He said that for a good welder, more technology makes you faster but not necessarily better if you're working with ordinary carbon steels...I wonder how many teams weld a test joint out of scrap then cut it to check penetration?

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....
  • Serj
  • Serj
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Cincinnati, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,601

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

well, I guess that's really the gray area then. Everything I've heard indicates that Stick welding is harder to look nice, but it's great for shipbuilding and structural stuff because you can send an operator up 75ft on a scaffolding with a pack of rods and a set of leads and if he has any skill at all will be able to get good penetration on plate steel waaaay thicker than what we use in cages. I think that if there has to be a wording update banning flux core outright would be fine, but I just don't see merit in excluding SMAW because some redneck doesn't know what he's doing. That's the whole POINT to most of the wording in that rule that practically screams "LET A PROFESSIONAL DO THIS". The guy who welded in the cage for our vic used stick, and while it wasn't gleaming perfection, it was done professionally by someone who knows how to get penetration.

55 Reply by Hoonatic Racing (edited by Lemonade Time Racing 2010-07-02 01:25 PM)

  • From: Houston (Spring) Texas
  • Registered: 2010-02-22
  • Posts: 1,624

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

Evil Genius wrote:

cage welds must be MIG or TIG, no stick, no flux core..   We are seeing simply horrible welds.

Just for that, I might oxy/gas weld my cage.

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

Hoonatic Racing's Website

  • RobL
  • RobL
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Philly area
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 2,721

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

Lemonade Time Racing wrote:
Evil Genius wrote:

cage welds must be MIG or TIG, no stick, no flux core..   We are seeing simply horrible welds.

Just for that, I might oxy/gas weld my cage.

With Brass as a filler? 

[runs, ducks, hides...]

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

RobL's Website

  • RobL
  • RobL
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Philly area
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 2,721

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

jimeditorial wrote:

I wonder how many teams weld a test joint out of scrap then cut it to check penetration?

When I teach my guys to weld, I do this.  I make both a perfect looking weld with minimal penetration and a good weld with deep penetration in front of the guy I'm teaching.  I cut them apart to show the difference and to show how you can't really tell from the outside if you did a good weld.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

RobL's Website

  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

Yes, a good welder can do excellent, strong and good looking (hey! good lookin') welds with a stick welder, no doubt.  Those welds will not look problematic, and they will pass, simple.     But, for the most part, the stick welds we see look like bird shit.  Most professional roll cage builders will use a MIG welder and almost all Stick welded cages are built in backyards by racers who have the DIY spirit and/or are trying to save money.  No insult intended, but its the truth.    We do have to deal with the 'redneck' (not my words) that doesn't really know what he's doing, and we would rather have the cage done right beforehand than being fixed the Friday night of the race. And we need a way to get there, qualifying welding techniques would get us a long way down that road.

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'
  • From: Spring, TX
  • Registered: 2009-10-25
  • Posts: 459

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

jimeditorial wrote:

I wonder how many teams weld a test joint out of scrap then cut it to check penetration?

Thats what she said.

Mike Peters
Former rotary brat pioneer.
3.17.08 Jalopnik Hoon of the day.  #hasbeen
1984 Dodge Rampage, A few SHO engines, a Mustang 8.8, and a lot of hot glue going on now.

mikespeed95's Website

  • From: Toronto, Ontario
  • Registered: 2009-05-03
  • Posts: 1,114

Re: DOM vs ERW for roll cage.

Evil Genius wrote:

Yes, a good welder can do excellent, strong and good looking (hey! good lookin') welds with a stick welder, no doubt.  Those welds will not look problematic, and they will pass, simple.     But, for the most part, the stick welds we see look like bird shit.  Most professional roll cage builders will use a MIG welder and almost all Stick welded cages are built in backyards by racers who have the DIY spirit and/or are trying to save money.  No insult intended, but its the truth.    We do have to deal with the 'redneck' (not my words) that doesn't really know what he's doing, and we would rather have the cage done right beforehand than being fixed the Friday night of the race. And we need a way to get there, qualifying welding techniques would get us a long way down that road.

Pros can make either look good, agreed, and given the speed and cleanliness of MIG, it's no surprise it's #1, but think about the backyard guy....it's easy to make great looking welds with no penetration with MIG, but with stick, especially AC, it's hard to weld tubing with too low a setting without sticking the rod.....rookies are more likely to go too high and blow holes. Good penetration is high probability stuff for stick. On the other hand, it's easy to trap slag inclusions with stick. I'd rather a noob use a 225A AC stick box with a good all position rod than a 110V suitcase MIG....A little splatter won't kill you...maybe rookies can do a test weld on scrap and verify the penetration, then video or take a pic and post for comment...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....