1 (edited by firemanshort 2010-06-28 10:27 AM)

Topic: Transmission Choice

Greetings all -

First post here - I was told a little about this racing series a few weeks ago for just the first time. I went to the Summit Point race and got to watch the wide field of participants. Some looked like they were having fun and other looked way serious but no too serious to scare me away for next year (I am a fireman - I am too stupid to get scared!).

My question to the group is transmission choices. Auto or Manual.

I would think that the real racing gear heads woud scoff at anything but a short shifting 5 speed. But what about the guys on tight budgets and that are looking for durability on the track.

I am afraid of what a $500 car's clutch would do on the track after about the 12th hour of total rookie idiot driving.

Is there a "best" rookie solution or should we just buy the best car for $500 we can and take whatever gearbox come with that?

Firemanshort
Sterling, VA

Re: Transmission Choice

We've had this exact discussion before, so you might want to search the archives so you get more insight.  That said, the general concensus is that auto transmissions MUST be kept cool, or they WILL fail.  If you can keep them cool via extra coolers, they should race ok.  Some rookies prefer them since it's one less thing to worry about on the track.  Manuals will likely be a bit faster due to more ratios, being in the right gear on corner exit and less power losses.

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/editpicture.php … 2559430584

Re: Transmission Choice

Manual, as much because it's harder to keep an auto from blowing up as anything else. There are more concerns about keeping the auto tranny oil cool after 12 hours of racing than what would happen to the clutch. If your clutch blows up it's an easier fix than if your auto-tranny overheats and blows up.

Unless you want to get heavily into oil cooler work for the autobox, look hard to get a manual. Good luck!

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Transmission Choice

If your car is stupid fast, and you are running one of the races we're going to, then you should definitely run an automatic.  And don't worry about cooling it, it'll be fineeeeee.  smile

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

5 (edited by Lemonade Time Racing 2010-06-28 10:51 AM)

Re: Transmission Choice

Make sure everyone on your team can drive a manual.
Stupid thought, I know, but some people can't drive a stick.

If someone on the team can't drive a stick get a slushbox.

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

Re: Transmission Choice

Mulry wrote:

Unless you want to get heavily into oil cooler work for the autobox...

You mean something like this?

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/06/number3-466x350.jpg

Summer's Eve Racing - '09 Yee-Haw; '10 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie, Yee-Haw; '11 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie (Winner, Class A!)
TARP Racing - '11 Yee-Haw, Heaps; '12 Gator-O-Rama (Winner, Class C ... Looking for a Class B Win to Complete the Trifecta!), Heaps; '13 NorDal Hooptie, Gator-O-Rama

Re: Transmission Choice

THATS what we need for the Camaro

Grooovey...

Team Sucker Punch: Winner Class B Doing Time at Joliet 2023 Autobahn ,Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
Chevy Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!

Re: Transmission Choice

while not many automatics have won a Lemons race (the benz might be the 1st)....the CAN make great cars......as others have said the key is keeping them COOL.....  The 928 runs a mercedes built automatic with a HUGE (1qt) cooler mounted up front....I have never seen the tranny above 190F...with 180F being normal...

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Transmission Choice

I've seen a fair number of automatics fail at Lemons, but manuals tend to fry clutches and/or eat their own innards with alarming frequency. Since there's about a 10:1 manual-to-automatic ratio in Lemons, it's hard to say which type is less reliable (particularly since so many automatics are found on small-block-Chevy-powered cars, which generally blow up the engine long before the transmission even gets warmed up), but there doesn't seem to be much real-world longevity difference. Just get whatever kind of car you like. Preferably an '83 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz with the stainless-steel roof.

Re: Transmission Choice

Yes, you need a transmission.  Next Question?

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Transmission Choice

Manual all the way. It's really hard to keep automatics cool, and getting them to behave in general is a little more of a guessing game. That said, TH350/400, chrysler 727/904, ford C4/6 are cheap and (relatively) easy to make unbreakable.

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

12 (edited by PunisherBass 2010-06-28 09:22 PM)

Re: Transmission Choice

We've run nothing but automatics in all six Lemons events we've done, three of them being full 24 hour races, and never had a problem with any of them. Only one of them came with a dedicated transmission cooler, which was our P71 Crown Vic. Most recently we've used cars with a 4T65E and then a 4T65E-HD transmission, both come with transmission coolers, but it's just a set of lines that run through the radiator. For the HD unit in our GTP we did put on a dedicated transmission cooler and ran the whole weekend at Summit Point without problems even in that heat.

http://pic.phyrefile.com/m/mc/mclightning95/2010/06/19/P1030145.JPG

Team Final Gear Crew Chief
#138 1997 Pontiac GTP - Supercharged 3800
#42   1999 Ford P71 Crown Vic

Re: Transmission Choice

We've been racing manuals.

We blew a clutch in the first race.

In the second race we lost fourth gear.  Changed the transmission and blew the new clutch we put in mid-race before a couple hours later.

A new clutch and some different drivers and we've made 4 races on the second warrantied clutch.

I always bring a spare clutch.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

14

Re: Transmission Choice

We exploded a clutch at Summit.  Luckily we had a spare and three hours later we were back on the track.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: Transmission Choice

X-args wrote:

Manual all the way. It's really hard to keep automatics cool, and getting them to behave in general is a little more of a guessing game. That said, TH350/400, chrysler 727/904, ford C4/6 are cheap and (relatively) easy to make unbreakable.

http://www.murileemartin.com/LGM10/Gingerman2010-0094.jpg

It Ain't My Fault

Re: Transmission Choice

Do you have idea how to swap an automatic or manual?  If yes to one, the answer is obvious.  If yes to both, then it depends on your drivers.  If no to both, awesome.

Re: Transmission Choice

Step one: First find some cars for less than $500.
Step two: evaluate for funkiness, more is better
Step three: evaluate for survivability.
step four: get extra parts (clutch, automatic trans, engine, wheel bearings, etc...)

A manual transmission will last longer under race conditions. As mentioned the automatics will get hot, and then cooked. But people are making them work.

The clutch should last fine. Exploding clutches are probably from bad downshifts and people trying to be racey (engine braking fancy heel/toe work). Most of these are relatively modern cars with good brakes, so you don't need to engine brake, so all that fancy down shifting (proper heel/toe) isn't that necessary. Brake hard, then shift. You'll be 2 wide, lined up behind 5 other cars in almost every corner, so you'll be braking early most of the time, and will have plenty of time to downshift and find the right gear for exiting the corner.

Dudes Ex Machina: https://www.facebook.com/dudesexmachina

?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

Re: Transmission Choice

Lemonade Time Racing wrote:

Make sure everyone on your team can drive a manual.

Funny story: we had to teach one of our drivers to drive a manual just so he could race with us (we already had the car w/ a stick). He still can't do a start on a hill without staling, but he kicked ass on the race track.

86 Honda Prelube - Team Inspite: Rabid Hybrid Racing

Re: Transmission Choice

Volvo 740 Station Wagons with Auto boxes - has anyone run them and how does that auto box hold up?

I have noticed a few Volvo wagons on the circuit and with teh scarcity of stick shits for those I assume at least one has been an automatice???? - maybe???

Firemanshort
Sterling, VA

Re: Transmission Choice

firemanshort wrote:

Volvo 740 Station Wagons with Auto boxes - has anyone run them and how does that auto box hold up?

I have noticed a few Volvo wagons on the circuit and with teh scarcity of stick shits for those I assume at least one has been an automatice???? - maybe???

I don't know -- but our Volvo 240 wagon, and the other Volvo 240s that I've seen, have been manuals. I suppose that someone somewhere has run a Volvo slushbox, but given the anemic power of the engine, I'm not sure I'd want to!

Dave -- member emeritus, Vermont Bert One --

Re: Transmission Choice

mackwagon wrote:

The clutch should last fine. Exploding clutches are probably from bad downshifts and people trying to be racey (engine braking fancy heel/toe work). Most of these are relatively modern cars with good brakes, so you don't need to engine brake, so all that fancy down shifting (proper heel/toe) isn't that necessary.

I agree with the engine braking part, but I'm not so sure about heel/toe.

If you know how to heel/toe properly that's actually the best thing you can do for your clutch and transmission.  Heel/toe braking is actually the opposite of engine braking.  When you heel/toe you're making sure the engine is reved up to match the wheel speed before you engage the clutch.  If you do it properly the clutch will barely slip before it completely engages which is the best possible outcome for its longevity.  Using a heel/toe technique certainly isn't necessary to keep your car on the track, but it's not like you should avoid it.

Engine braking, on the other hand, should be avoided.  When you engine brake the wheels are spinning much faster than the engine and the clutch ends up slipping a lot and generating a lot of heat in order to get the two to match so it can engage completely.  If you do a lot of this in a Lemon you will probably also replace a lot of clutches.

Re: Transmission Choice

firemanshort wrote:

Volvo 740 Station Wagons with Auto boxes - has anyone run them and how does that auto box hold up?

I have noticed a few Volvo wagons on the circuit and with teh scarcity of stick shits for those I assume at least one has been an automatice???? - maybe???

I think most of the Volvos are 5 speeds.....  John at Evil Genius is the guy to ask....since he has built lots of race-track prepped Volvos!

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2