Topic: Chopping Corners

I've only driven in one Lemons race before (was all set to drive at Dallas, but the car blew up before I got in the seat), and other than that I've been to one day long "bring your own car" driving course at a track.  Needless to say I'm a very inexperienced racing driver.

I was wondering if someone could explain what chopping a corner means.  I've seen mentions of it in the rules and on the forums but I'm not sure I really know what it means.  From what little I know about driving you're supposed to get as wide as possible when entering a turn and then aim to have your inside tire hit the very inside of the corner at the apex, then drift back to the outside as you exit.  Is that considered chopping the corner if there's someone behind and inside of you?

Re: Chopping Corners

If you move into someone elses line it's considered chopping. 

If you are entering a right hand turn - you are on the outside but a car noses along side of you on the inside.  If you then try to take the apex, you would chop down on them because you should have yielded the corner to avoid contact.  Same thing on corner exit - if you hit the apex but are approaching a slower car -  If you track out and force them to brake or go off track to avoid hitting you, then you chopped them.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

3 (edited by RobL 2010-07-15 08:42 AM)

Re: Chopping Corners

You can see me kind of get chopped in the beginnig of this vid: http://vimeo.com/9434306 The red CRX should have stayed to the inside of the corner. 
I did not chop him back - he was already going 4 off and I take a normal line through the corner.  If he had not gone 4 off, that would have been considered a chop.  And a total chop on our part at 4:06.  We left the car no where to go.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Chopping Corners

So if someone is approaching a corner wide is it considered bad form to duck inside of them and prevent them from apexing?  Sort of putting yourself in a position to be chopped.

5 (edited by EricTheBrown 2010-07-15 09:30 AM)

Re: Chopping Corners

mikedeck wrote:

So if someone is approaching a corner wide is it considered bad form to duck inside of them and prevent them from apexing?  Sort of putting yourself in a position to be chopped.

I always thought that was considered passing someone!  Unless you dive-bomb them.  As long as your front bumper is even with the drivers door(where he can see you there) before you make your turn in, you have the right to the inside line around the corner.  Just don't dive in there with too much speed where you slide out into the driver on the outside.

That said, I have no Lemons experience.  I know my first race out, I don't think I'll be pushing for those kind of passes very much.  Putting yourself in a position to be chopped, when you are dealing with drivers of a wide variety of experience or inexperience, paired with the rolling scrap piles on the track does not seem like a good way to extend your track time.

I am mentally divergent in that I am escaping certain unnamed realities that plague my life there. When I stop coming here, I will be well...

Re: Chopping Corners

Every beginner should read this book http://www.amazon.com/Going-Faster-Mast … amp;sr=1-1
Or one similar.

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

Re: Chopping Corners

Dive bombing versus chopping is all dependent on if the inside car has the right to its position when attempting to make a pass. The passing car has the right to its position if it can get its front wheel even with the driver's door (or front passenger door) prior to turn-in for a particular turn.

Take a look at pages 135-144 of the BMWCCA Club Racing Rules for a pretty decent explanation (with illustrations) of who owes what duty to whom in passing situations:

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/static/ … -v15.5.pdf

Dive-bombing is illustrated on page 135 and chopping on page 137.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Chopping Corners

EricTheBrown wrote:

...I don't think I'll be pushing for those kind of passes very much.  Putting yourself in a position to be chopped, when you are dealing with drivers of a wide variety of experience or inexperience, paired with the rolling scrap piles on the track does not seem like a good way to extend your track time.

Yeah, my personal rule in my first and only race was basically only pass on the straights (and that didn't happen much considering our car was lucky to get 75 hp to its front wheels.)  It worked out pretty well for me, so I think I'll stick with that as a general guideline for at least the next few races.  With the penalties for black flags being what they are, it would seem that a single misstep on a pass can negate any advantage you might gain from an entire day's worth of highly aggressive driving.

Re: Chopping Corners

mikedeck wrote:

With the penalties for black flags being what they are, it would seem that a single misstep on a pass can negate any advantage you might gain from an entire day's worth of highly aggressive driving.

Well said. The only time that really aggressive passes are worth the risk is in the last few hours of the race on Sunday, and then only if your team is in contention for the overall win and that aggressive pass will substantially benefit you versus the other top contenders. For example, an aggro pass of a backmarker when your direct competition is not within sight is probably still a bad idea.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Chopping Corners

When I ran my first Lemons I was a little surprised.  My rule of thumb was that you needed to be inside and even before the turn in - otherwise you're stealing someone's line and you need to back off
So with that plan - I got divebombed continuously in corners the whole first day.
2nd day I just divebombed everyone back or early apexed every turn I had someone close on my heels.  Was that right? probably not, but it was effective - and that's how the event was flowing

Last Lemons race I started out driving again with a gentleman's attitude and many of the others on the track did so as well.  That carried through much better on the race.  In the western races that I have run, my opinion is that every race gets a little more refined and the drivers of better caliber.
Consequently "ungentlemanly" behavior is more and more likely to get you black flagged and lose you time

In the end remember that its an endurance race and time lost with even a minor contact has a fairly significant impact on your time.  Err on the side of caution and you'll have a better time

Paluck
Rooster Juice Racing
Bay Area, CA

Re: Chopping Corners

i've always considered it to be the SCCA version of the rules on passing. it's the passer's job to execute a safe pass, and the one who's ahead at turn in has the right to the corner

the BMW one seems to be a lot like the NASA rules on it. time trail sorta rules where slower cars should yield to the ones coming roaring up behind them.

either way, as either the passer or the passed, you should be very aware that the rules do say any contact could be considered grounds for a black flag (and lots of time not going anywhere). so it's better safe than sorry, if you know they're coming, why not just let 'em go and hope they break or do something stupid on their own?

Re: Chopping Corners

My philosophy is simple:  Always give the other car someplace to go.

If I know there's a car to my inside (whether they're even with my door, or just behind my rear bumper doesn't matter), I'm going to take the corner such that they have room to BE inside me.  I'll give up 6-8 feet on the apex to be sure they have room, and I'll stay wide on the exit (which is where I should be, anyway) to be sure there is no contact.

Likewise, if I'm on the inside (even if I'm clearly AHEAD of the car I'm passing on the inside), I'm going to give the other car a place to BE.  I'm going to stay tight on the apex and not track out so wide that they get forced into the grass.

If you're aware of the cars around you, it's pretty easy to play safe and give people a little room.  So, as was stated above, "watch your mirrors".

Of course, Lemons is frequently different when you go into a tight sequence of turns with a pack of 15-20 cars 3 or 4 cars wide.  Then it's a little more like rush-hour traffic... stay in your "lane" unless you're sure you can cleanly make a "lane change".  You have to know the other cars and drivers (and hope they didn't just change drivers while you weren't looking) in order to choose the best "lane" to be in when you come upon those situations.  And if you happen to guess wrong, sometimes it calls for a little patience.

Always remember that it's an endurance race.  You're usually better off just following behind that car that's being really difficult to pass.  Let them bulldoze for you and follow in their wake!

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: Chopping Corners

Loren wrote:

Let them bulldoze for you and follow in their wake!

My favorite 20 minutes of racing was when I was driving an FX16 and got in behind a crown vic.  I let her do the blocking for us while I just stayed no more than 5' off her bumper (victoria is a girl, right?).  Her frustration just kept growning and she kept getting more agressive until I finally lost her in traffic.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Chopping Corners

Loren wrote:

My philosophy is simple:  Always give the other car someplace to go.

If I know there's a car to my inside (whether they're even with my door, or just behind my rear bumper doesn't matter), I'm going to take the corner such that they have room to BE inside me.  I'll give up 6-8 feet on the apex to be sure they have room, and I'll stay wide on the exit (which is where I should be, anyway) to be sure there is no contact.

Likewise, if I'm on the inside (even if I'm clearly AHEAD of the car I'm passing on the inside), I'm going to give the other car a place to BE.  I'm going to stay tight on the apex and not track out so wide that they get forced into the grass.

If you're aware of the cars around you, it's pretty easy to play safe and give people a little room.  So, as was stated above, "watch your mirrors".

Of course, Lemons is frequently different when you go into a tight sequence of turns with a pack of 15-20 cars 3 or 4 cars wide.  Then it's a little more like rush-hour traffic... stay in your "lane" unless you're sure you can cleanly make a "lane change".  You have to know the other cars and drivers (and hope they didn't just change drivers while you weren't looking) in order to choose the best "lane" to be in when you come upon those situations.  And if you happen to guess wrong, sometimes it calls for a little patience.

Always remember that it's an endurance race.  You're usually better off just following behind that car that's being really difficult to pass.  Let them bulldoze for you and follow in their wake!

Just drove my first Lemons race last weekend and this was my exact philosophy.  I guess if you're a serious contender for overall win there might be some validity to driving more aggressively.  Since that was definitely NOT the case for us, it was more fun to turn some clean laps.

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Chopping Corners

Clean laps and staying out on the track as long as you can is how you end up contending for the win. Dive bomb passes and trying to out brake the other car is the wrong way. Wait for a safe time to pass. No drama, no black flag.

Re: Chopping Corners

sergio wrote:

Clean laps and staying out on the track as long as you can is how you end up contending for the win. Dive bomb passes and trying to out brake the other car is the wrong way. Wait for a safe time to pass. No drama, no black flag.

Good advise coming from a two time winner and in a SHO no less!

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Chopping Corners

Loren wrote:

My philosophy is simple:  Always give the other car someplace to go.

If I know there's a car to my inside (whether they're even with my door, or just behind my rear bumper doesn't matter), I'm going to take the corner such that they have room to BE inside me.  I'll give up 6-8 feet on the apex to be sure they have room, and I'll stay wide on the exit (which is where I should be, anyway) to be sure there is no contact.

Likewise, if I'm on the inside (even if I'm clearly AHEAD of the car I'm passing on the inside), I'm going to give the other car a place to BE.  I'm going to stay tight on the apex and not track out so wide that they get forced into the grass.

That is my exact line of thinking as well.  It also worth it to spend a few laps 'hanging back' to see how the drivers ahead of you are driving.  If you see the guy up ahead constantly chopping corners, dive bombing, etc you will better know what to expect and what to do about it.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

18 (edited by sbarton 2010-07-21 06:02 AM)

Re: Chopping Corners

BMW Club Racing has a good article on chopping.
http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/Informa … ition.aspx

BMWClubRacing wrote:

GCR 9.1.1: The Responsibility...rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver has the responsibility to be aware...and not to impede...The overtaken driver shall not block. Any driver who fails to make use of the rear view mirror, or who appears to be blocking…, may be black flagged and/or penalized.*

That’s it. All of it. The entirety of the “Rules of the Road” regarding drivers dealing with the presence of each other. Succinct, isn’t it? If not downright cryptic.

Actually its rather verbose compared to the usual bench racing pronouncement. “whoever has his nose in front has the corner”. One wonders why we would be interested in something so simplistic.

Such statements usually come at the end of a discussion of some racing incident, which in turn was likely caused when one or both drivers ignored the real rule of the road: Know where the other one is if at all possible and, whether it is or not, leave room for him or her to survive the moment.

Having your nose in front does not mean you own the corner. That other car is still present, is still racing, and has the right to enough space to exist. Just a car width plus a few inches, that’s all.

And, if you are in the other seat and that guy does not have his nose in front , it does not mean he or she doesn’t own the corner either. If you drive all the way to the apex and that car was far enough up or coming on so fast that contact can reasonably be expected to happen, you just violated the rule. He or she could even be fully behind you but be obviously committed to the inside at such a speed that you can no longer move into that path without being hit. You must be aware of the relative speed and car placements, then decide what you can or cannot do. It all comes down to judgment.

That is the core of racing, the very essence of it. If you demand or need the entire road to race, go Solo I instead. Wheel-to-wheel racing centers on dealing effectively with the presence of each other and still racing. You should be able to get or stay in front by superior skill &/or equipment, not by your willingness to commit mayhem.

Being a race car driver entails leaving that car width plus inches, then instantaneously picking and driving a racing line using the part of the road left to you.

It is everchanging and requires intense constant concentration while operating at the car’s limits within the situations. It has no hard, set rules like ”nose in front”. That’s as untenable as the “rules” of emergencies. (What do you do when a car spins in front of you)? How should I know? I’ve only had a few hundred of them. Simplistic souls say steer for it, hit the gas, scream “Oh S…”. What happens is, you take in endless bits of information, process it, make a decision, act, reevaluate, act again, and so on — all faster than onlookers can gasp and jump to their feet. That’s what makes race drivers. We do not react. We think, at speeds that seem to be reactions. We revel in that ability. And the volume of our thought processes in those moments explains why a brief incident can require so much description.

If you cannot do this, you are no race driver. That’s why being one is such a big deal. Who would care if anyone could do it?

And if you insist on disregarding the other guy, moving over knowing contact is likely, you are also not a race driver. You are a jerk. A fast jerk, possibly, but a jerk nonetheless. Any other story is b.s.

You are also somewhat shortsighted. Contact between cars tends to unsettle them, to make the moment ragged and uneven, and that has never been the description of how to go fast. It also causes damage to your car, damage that may end your race and that you yourself have to pay for. Why one would choose to cost himself unnecessary expense for the privilege of going slower escapes me.

Racing will give you plenty of opportunity for that without your assistance. Untimely mechanical foul-ups, human errors (your and others), and occasional bad luck will at times manage your charger. You don’t need to encourage that with an attitude that racing is sheer nerve and guts. It’s not. It IS concentration, attention, and skill —– skill that delights in showing the other guy that you can drive around him and still do it faster. That’s where our attitude shows.
   
- Mike Carney

Scott Barton

19 (edited by Jer 2010-07-21 07:32 AM)

Re: Chopping Corners

This is simpler than it seems.  If you and another car enter a corner side by side, and you are on the outside, the inside car should give you room to exit on the outside too.  And you, as the outside driver, need to give the inside car room on the apex.  It's really quite simple in practice.  If you try to pass someone on the inside, expect to leave room for them. 

I've always honered this and so have the vast majority of competitors with a few notable exceptions.  And I've never had contact in a situation like this.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)