Topic: Crank swap in a 2.8

Glad I finally got around to signing up for the forum, too bad it's not under better circumstances.  Here is my dilemma.  We are racing a Fiero (dumb), the motor went to hell (go figure).  The crank is toast and the rods are kaput.  The problem is that motor was such crap everything has been discontinued and anything in the junk yard is in the same shape as what we got.  I know you can put the 3.1 crank and rods into the 2.8, but can I use the 2.8 pistons as well.  Or am I gonna need to get 3.1 pistons for clearance issues.  I hope for my wallets sake I can just use the 2.8 pistons.  Any and all help is greatly appreciated.  Oh, and telling me racing a Fiero is moronic isn't really helping, just obvious. At least it is now.

Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

why not swap in a newer version w/ the same outer dimensions?  If I recall, a 3.1 or 3.3 may do it.

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Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

You can clearance the pistons if you have to....would probably need v. little off the skirt. You can rebalance with a postal scale. Junkyard 3.1 swap might be simpler and cheaper....and no,  it's not moronic to race a Fiero...they're a ton o' fun to race, but if you're running the 2.8 don't drive it like Steve Kinser.....tip in and out of the throttle quickly but gently and don't over-rev, ever. A rev limiter might be a good idea just in case. Cooling is key (I speak from painful experience here) so boil out you system totally and try to run a bigger rad or an auxiliary and get the air out!

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

4 (edited by Mkotzias 2010-07-30 08:47 AM)

Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

There is a year break point for the 2.8 internal and external balance.
I believe it is 87....don't quote me....careful messing around with parts swapping a 2.8.....
(I speak from experience, I have a tubo charged 2.8 in an 84 Chevette....)
Jim is right ....a 3.1 is probably your better bet because the are more plentiful....
I think that your  motor had cast iron heads,  but still uses the front wheel drive type motor mounting so any 3.1 from 89 to the late 90's should work with your heads and intake.

Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

Do you know how to use MsExcel? You need to build your self a little spreadsheet to calculate the piston height in relationship to the block deck. You can do it by hand, but having the spreadsheet  makes it easy. If you e-mail me direct I can send you a spreadsheet that is set up (for metric engines), you just have to plug in relevant information.

Basically what you need is the following information for all the different parts from different engines:
1. the block (crankshaft center to deck distance)
2. Crank center to rod bearing center distance. This = 1/2 stroke
3. Rod length - center to center (measure the two holes and the distance between the close edges, so rod length = (Diameter#1 + diameter#2)/2 + distance between
4. Piston height -Piston Pin center to piston top distance.
5. head gasket thickness when installed -crushed. You can measure the fire ring on an old gasket to find this.

go search the web for that information on each of the two engines, 2.8 and 3.1, its probably available.

Additional information that is useful is piston dome or dish volume (cc), and head chamber volume (cc). you can use that info along with the other measurements to calculate engine volume and Compression Ratio (important!)

This works easy for flat top pistons. If you have domed pistons it might give you a bad answer, so you'll have to do a second measurement. What you want to calculate is:

head gasket + Block height (Crank center to top deck) minus [ crank throw+ rod length+ piston height]. That should equal a positive value meaning the piston is below the block deck and it won't hit the head. Negative implies your pistons will hit the head.

If you have domed pistons and you get a negative value in the calculation, then you need to remeasure your piston, and the head. Measure piston pin center to the flat part of the piston top, and the calculate the height of the dome. then measure the depth of the head chamber. This is going to be difficult since you have to figure out where the dome will be closest to the head. Use the pin to flat part number and calculate vs. the block height, it should be again positive, meaning most of the piston is below the block deck. Then subtract the piston dome height from head chamber depth and see if that is also POSITIVE. a negative value implies your piston will hit the head chamber

Or: find another GM engine that will bolt to that transaxle and swap it in.
Or bolt in a motorcycle engine and figure out how to make that work with your GM transaxle.

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Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

FWIW in my experience cam and rod bearings are the real pressure killer, so if it's mains you're worried about consider a journal polish and throw a set of bearings at it.....crush matters and it is possible to shim them... straight grade 30-40-50W helps too. The heavy oil won't take much power and once it gets to temperature it will crank just fine. Forget multigrades for this fix. If your oil pressure is low it's extra critical to keep temperatures down, so get extra cooling. You could also bring along that junkyard 3.1 and swap it in if needed in the pits....if you've gutted the rear baggage area you have reasonable room to work and it's not a tough swap.....epic fix etc...If you have time, consider blasting out the subframe bolts with an air gun and reassembling with anti-seize....do this everywhere you can to avoid the nightmare of a broken bolt/stripped threads in the pits. Same with hoses...pull and reassemble with a v. thin smear of grease (I use dielectric compound) and you can swap cooling system stuff quickly.

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

This is why Lemons is so amazing.  Thanx for all the help.

8 (edited by pk386 2010-07-31 03:17 PM)

Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

Why don't you look at the Engine out of the Z-34 lumnia?

3.4L 60º v-6 thats based off of the 2.8L with DOHC and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_ … of_the_Z34

I drive hoon the ever-loving crap out of my 91 s-10 2.8 W/5spd so I'm a fan. The 2.8 gets a bad wrap IMHO. I agree with jimeditorial.  you have to smooth and  roll on the throttle with the 2.8.  And over revving is a NO NO (although I have bounced off the rev limiter in my truck once. I was lucky I didn't throw a rod.)

OH and my truck has 230K miles on it FYI... :-)

I was looking at the z-34 engine  the last time I was at pull-a-part to see if it was possible to swap in my s-10. but, it turns out it's physically impossible to flip the intake manifold so that the throttle body faces forward. Unless I cut the upper intake manifold in 1/2 flipped it 180º and re welded it. (not an option at this point in life)

But I did research the 2.8 and I found that the z-34 motor has a beefier connecting rods. as well as some other go-fast goodies.

If you decide to go crazy you might could squeeze a 3800 in there. it's a 45º v-6 but it has the metric housing pattern.

if your any where near Jackson MS that z-34 will be there for a few more weeks.

"I haven't failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work" - Thomas Edison

Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

The original gray Cavalier wagon had a 2.8 with a 3.1 crank/rods, plus a lot of porting and intake manifold welding. With the cam that we had it made about 175hp, revved to 6000+ and survived three transmissions and two full seasons of Lemons. And 80000 street miles before that, and two Michigan no-fault totals with $280 buybacks.

The 60* GM V6 has been through many iterations, but the easiest junkyard swap that is cheap would be a 3.4 from a minivan. 160+hp with no work (all 2.8 manifolds etc bolt on).

If you're ambitious, the Gen III 3.5/3.9 will physically fit (slight trans mount mods required) and make 200/240hp stock. But it's a huge pain to make the electronics work, since the LZ9 has a cam phaser. Still, they're in junkyards for ~$250-300, since no one wants them.

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Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

X-args wrote:

With the cam that we had it made about 175hp, revved to 6000+ and survived three transmissions and two full seasons of Lemons.

What cam do you speak of? Some one makes a cam for the 2.8L? or is it a regrind?

"I haven't failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work" - Thomas Edison

Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

Lunati makes a cam for that motor. They say 'not for FI' but it worked fine.
Still, a 3.4 is really the best way to go, and you should be able to find one cheap.

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

12 (edited by BoB 2010-08-01 08:42 AM)

Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

Here is a good place to ask around for this http://wot-tech.com/

They are a shop that specializes in the 60 degree v6(2.8, 3.1, 3.4and 3.5).  They should be able to tell you what you would need and if it fits in your budget sell it to you.

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Re: Crank swap in a 2.8

I always wanted to get an Olds Toronto w/455 @ 425 trans and put in in a "Fearo"

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