1 Topic by Crab Spirits (edited by Crab Spirits 2010-08-09 03:45 AM)

  • From: Romeoville, IL
  • Registered: 2009-12-12
  • Posts: 1,117

Topic: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Our build is winding down and we're finalizing our firewall behind the driver's seat. Trying to figure out if what we have planned will fly during tech. Some interior shots of mid-hatch Lemons (if it's been done before) would help a lot.

Right now we're installing a 2-piece barrier in front of the main hoop. The upper portion is Lexan with holes cut to pass the harness through. The lower portion, up to the heads, will be steel. The harness holes and edge gaps will be sealed with high density foam or rubber weatherstripping. We're basically treating it as if it was the front firewall/windshield of the car with no hood, like a lot of you guys love.
http://home.comcast.net/~movistar323/pwpimages/cage5.jpg

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  • From: Craphole, NJ
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 517

Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Your harness will  be anchored inside the engine compartment?  Um,  no.

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  • From: Romeoville, IL
  • Registered: 2009-12-12
  • Posts: 1,117

Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Well my initial plan was to have the Lexan behind the hoop and harness, but I figured the fire would happen post-crash in a fire/crash combo and this would not be a problem. I guess I can box it off around the harness which would also seal off the holes.

The Charnal House Geo MetSHO: Turning less laps than a regular Metro, the hard way!

1969 Subaru 360

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  • From: Craphole, NJ
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 517

Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Crab Spirits wrote:

...but I figured the fire would happen post-crash in a fire/crash combo and this would not be a problem.

At Lemons, fires can happen while driving, after a crash, during BS inspection, while loading the car on the trailer, or while eating pizza with dirty grease soaked hands.

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  • JThw8
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

"3.22: Engine Firewall: Gaps or holes in the engine firewall must be sealed up with metal plate or OE-type grommets. If you can see through it, we want it closed up."

Im thinking Lexan isnt metal and therefore doesn't cut it.

Id build a box over the whole motor, behind the cage so your harnesses are clear of the "engine compartment"

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6 Reply by Crab Spirits (edited by Crab Spirits 2010-08-09 05:22 AM)

  • From: Romeoville, IL
  • Registered: 2009-12-12
  • Posts: 1,117

Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

JThw8 wrote:

Im thinking Lexan isnt metal and therefore doesn't cut it.

Neither does this if you want to interpret the rules that way.
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2010/07/500x_lne10-winner-ioe3-500px.jpg

Would really like a verdict from the judges as with the box method, we're pretty screwed if we want to service the car.

The Charnal House Geo MetSHO: Turning less laps than a regular Metro, the hard way!

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  • Mulry
  • Mulry
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  • From: Dallas, TX
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Crab Spirits wrote:

Would really like a verdict from the judges as with the box method, we're pretty screwed if we want to service the car.

The rules do not say that the metal panels cannot be removable. You can design/engineer these so that they meet the rules for all-metal firewalls and are removable for service of the engine. The Yellow Submarine Dauphine uses this method for its Sable-in-the-backseat swap.

Good luck.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

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  • From: Safety Harbor, FL (Tampa)
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 668

Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Select a plane for your rear "hood" and weld in a framework around the perimeter that will give you an inch of material for the hood to rest on and bolt to.  Make a main panel that's as wide as you can easily swing open for regular maintenance.  Put hinges on the forward end, hood pins at the rear, or just pin 4 corners.  Fill the sides with bolt-in filler panels that you can remove if you need to pull the engine or something.

Weld in a firewall at the front.  Done.  Skip the plexiglass and enjoy the ventilation.

Bonus points if you use an actual recognizable hood from an awful production car (or from your engine donor?), complete with hood ornament, and hack it to fit.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!
  • Dave
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

From experience, Build a metal box around it or it won't pass tech. We had to do this with the Snoopy van, good thing because it caught on fire. Remember the Judges are all knowing and wise.

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  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 297

Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Not to imply that anything that Alex (Dr. Metrognome) does is "right", but this has at least passed tech a few times...

http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Tech/Best-Engineered-L/Metrognome-RWD-10/707467243_c5TmM-L.jpg

link

As others said. Metal is the name of the game (takes longer to melt). Running your belts INSIDE the engine compartment would be a guaranteed fail. In that regard I'd expect the tech inspectors would want to be convinced your belts were decently insulated from the engine heat. Similar to that reflective insulation junk the gnome is sporting in the above photo. Your drivers will probably like it too, engines in the passenger compartment tend to increase passenger compartment temperatures a bit.

The Geord looks pretty sweet, where are you going to race it first?

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11 Reply by RichVS (edited by RichVS 2010-08-09 07:20 PM)

  • RichVS
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

I had the same task as you when I was doing the 4CV firewall and the ruling was NO LEXAN.   I used a small center window from a pickup.

I doubt you can penetrate the wall with shoulder belts.  Even if it's allowed, it's a bad idea.  You can weld another tube below your existing shoulder bar and fasten the belts there (assuming it results in a proper angle to your shoulders or hans).  Go surf for sprint car pictures.

Here's a during-construction shot of how I chose to do it.  The seat is out and several of the panels are not yet welded in.  The belts go over the upper horizontal bar.  They clear the firewall because of the bubble pounded into it, and then they fasten to the tabs you see on the bar below it.  The bummer about this approach is that it makes getting the angle to the driver's shoulder more difficult if you have short and tall drivers.

http://von-sneidern.com/rocketsurgeryracing/DSCN1829.jpg

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

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  • From: Safety Harbor, FL (Tampa)
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 668

Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Is there a build log of that 4CV somewhere?  That's pretty sexy.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!
  • RichVS
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

I haven't done a very good job of keeping it updated.






<--------- clicky

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

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  • JThw8
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

RichVS wrote:

I haven't done a very good job of keeping it updated.






<--------- clicky

I hear ya on that one, sometimes folks forget, we can either get out there and build the dang car or we can update a website about building the dang car.

Love that rear firewall by the way wink Personalization via beadroller seems to be another thing our mutants have in common (the first thing being that they are mutants)

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com/images/backpanel.jpg

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  • JThw8
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Crab Spirits wrote:
JThw8 wrote:

Im thinking Lexan isnt metal and therefore doesn't cut it.

Neither does this if you want to interpret the rules that way.
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/im … -500px.jpg

Would really like a verdict from the judges as with the box method, we're pretty screwed if we want to service the car.

The difference here is the engine is not in the cockpit with the driver.  That's a pretty big difference.

If you want a difinitive ruling from the judges email nick or jay, they dont cruise the forums looking for tech questions to answer, you have to seek them out.

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OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  • wesmc
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

RichVS wrote:

http://von-sneidern.com/rocketsurgeryra … CN1829.jpg

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com/im … kpanel.jpg

Very cool work guys!  Hope we get a chance to see these at an event one day.

  • JThw8
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

wesmc wrote:
RichVS wrote:

http://von-sneidern.com/rocketsurgeryra … CN1829.jpg

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com/im … kpanel.jpg

Very cool work guys!  Hope we get a chance to see these at an event one day.

Ours already ran at Capitol Offense.  We're off to building the next car now.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  • From: Wheaton IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 408

Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Have you run the car with that cage?  Who built it?

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.
  • RichVS
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Re: Mid-engine Hatchbacks?

Trevor57 wrote:

Have you run the car with that cage?  Who built it?

Which car?  I think the Wartburg was caged by someone here on the forums (RobL?).  The 4CV was caged by me.  It ran at the BFE GP.  I'm not sure when/where the next race will be for it.  I'm a little broke due to getting a pinkslip the week before BFE.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

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