Topic: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

So the first Mini motor we destroyed was our original that was +.030  when we dropped a valve and shattered a piston, but the bore looks ok (I'll check the crank before reusing and I'll replace that one rod with one from one of the other blown motors).

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/3181691/DSC03732_detail.JPG

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/3181620/DSC03731_detail.JPG

Unfortunately, finding a single 998 +.030 flat top TRW piston has proven impossible. However, while cleaning out some parts storage (me CLEAN?! yes, I did a little) I found a single +.040 998 AE flat top piston that I bought by mistake a few years ago thinking I was buying a set but didn't ask enough questions before sending money...

Anyway, I was thinking... would it be THAT awful to have 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 at +.040? I could always use a tiny scale and try to make sure the weights are close and I could even do some combustion chamber altering to get the compression ratios close to the same...

Other consideration: the 3 x +.030 pistons are 4 ring full skirt while the +.040 piston is 3 ring slipper skirt.

I'm interested in hearing the concerns I should consider before I do this.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

what could possibly go wrong ?

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

what could possibly go wrong??

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

What could possibly go wrong?

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

"in the day" the Datsun guys all had #2 cylinder at the limit of spec bores and strokes, and the rest... well, let's just say a std breath-down could tell the difference quite easily.
It worked for them on a rather massive size difference, I can't see it not working on a small difference.
Or you could always wrap a .020 piston with aluminum foil and JB weld.

he pissed in his what?

6 (edited by EyeMWing 2010-08-28 02:13 PM)

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

What could possibly go wrong?

(No, really. What are you expecting the failure mode to be? The head growing wings and flying away?)

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

With the 3-bearing main, I am a little worried about flexing crankshaft and breaking it. I KNOW something is going to break--- (that's more or less the point, no?) ---it's just how long will it last before it breaks and is there anything I should consider doing so I can maximize potential driver time. I'm not under a time pressure at the moment, so there's time to maybe do it slightly less wrong.

For starters, I'm thinking I need to make the #1 hole the +.040 (if I can actually have a choice) because it's right by the balancer pulley and furthest from the flywheel (that hangs 6-8 inches or so behind the rear main).

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

#1 or #2.  Think sinusoidal when you are looking at flex - the #2 position might be better because of the center web and, oddly, the twist and weight of #1 to the balancer.

I don't think I would do either #3 or #4 'cause those already are prone to crank failure.

Honestly, the minor cc difference will come out in the wash due to extra minor compression. Don't worry about it at all.

and yeah, the harbor freight mini scale will balance pistons as well as anything.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

HAHAHA you care about a hundredth of an inch. In a LeMon. Seriously, it will run better than 75% of the cars out there if you have access to any measuring device more advanced than a ruler.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

How about turn down the piston to make it an .030?

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

Just run it.   Worry more about rod length and any damage from previous failures. 

If the motor had actually been balanced before I'd go through and set rod weights and match piston weights but this is Lemons and if they are close it is probably good enough.

Checking the new piston against one of the others is a good idea, if it has a different deck height or weight it may vibrate a bit more or knock on only that cylinder ( if it has more height ).

If it has more deck height you can sand a bit of dish into it to match the CC of the chambers so you have the same compression across all 4.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

Spinnetti wrote:

How about turn down the piston to make it an .030?

I gave that a bit of thought, but remembered that pistons (at least cast pistons) aren't round nor are they square-- they are oblong and are larger down at the skirt. But I'm sure turning it down on a lathe  would be about as precise as honing the one hole out to +.040...

Balanced? BALANCED?! Aaahhhhh ha ha ha ha (etc.). [ahem]. no, it wasn't balanced previously.

I'm going to do it, just wanted to hear what all I should also consider: More good news-- the offending valve that ended up slightly bent, didn't damage the head casting, valve guide, or seat. I stuck another intake valve in there from the recently obliterated head and it seats great! A little more lapping of the valves and I should be good to go. But I'm going to check all of the springs and may get some of the $25 Sprite/Midget springs off of ebay.

Thanks for the input everyone.

13 (edited by Spinnetti 2010-08-29 11:54 AM)

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

Spank wrote:
Spinnetti wrote:

How about turn down the piston to make it an .030?

I gave that a bit of thought, but remembered that pistons (at least cast pistons) aren't round nor are they square-- they are oblong and are larger down at the skirt. But I'm sure turning it down on a lathe  would be about as precise as honing the one hole out to +.040...

Balanced? BALANCED?! Aaahhhhh ha ha ha ha (etc.). [ahem]. no, it wasn't balanced previously.

I'm going to do it, just wanted to hear what all I should also consider: More good news-- the offending valve that ended up slightly bent, didn't damage the head casting, valve guide, or seat. I stuck another intake valve in there from the recently obliterated head and it seats great! A little more lapping of the valves and I should be good to go. But I'm going to check all of the springs and may get some of the $25 Sprite/Midget springs off of ebay.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Yeah, I knew that actually. Also the top couple lands are usually a couple .000x smaller than the barrel due to extra expansion at the crown too. I was thinking chuck it up in the lathe then see how close to round it is. I think others are probably right though that the engine won't know the difference if you have one .040 and the rest .030.... Since you are modding anyway, why not carve some skirt away and balance them to reduce drag? The skirt is just to prevent piston rocking, so is only really needed 90 degrees to the pin - I bet those old pistons have lots of room for improvement.  Did you know ring drag is like 20% of engine friction? I've been tempted to ditch the 2nd compression ring and see what happens (or get low tension rings if they are available)... would probably burn oil, but would run cooler and convert more of the power into forward motion... all kinds of stuff that would be fun to try in Lemons world that I would never do on one of my "good" cars.

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

I say the balancing- weight is the main thing. As long as you get the weights the same youd be ok.  Were planning to do the same with a VW engine.  but doing 2 cyl 9XX cc and the other 2 at 10xx..  so one on each side of the engine.  Since I was able to find 3 cyl of each kit at a swap meet for $25.. per  3 cyl  or set..

EuroTrash E30 - Lemons South 08 (cooling probs) 24th /CMP  Spring 09 (fuel tank damage) one day on track 69th /Lemons South 09 (Hit by an Escort) 27th
MSR Tx, 10 2oth, no issues other than rain. /CHump Homestead Miami 10- 2nd place.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

Also do remember to use slightly higher ring clearance, at the high end of the acceptable range, on the top ring than normal street rings call for as road racing with a bad radiator and worn out water pump gets the top ring quite hot.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

Unless you're wanting to balance the crank and pistons...NOT an issue.

-Eric
Team Dead Presidents
MR2 President Yee-Haw Lemons Texas 2010 (Yes, it WAS bouncing up and down the WHOLE time!)

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

A preliminary check on a highly un-scientific scale shows that the +.040 piston is over 1 ounce lighter than the other 3 pistons of +.030.

and the adjacent piston to the broken one had a broken top ring. And despite putting the ring gaps  120-180degrees out from one another, the oil rings (not the spring spacer) all aligned -- on each piston, and also gaps on rings  2&3 also aligned or nearly so. The top rings were 180 out from the others, though.

Bearings look good (for used bearings). Crank looks ok, too. Just #4 rod journal has some scores, which it had when it went back together originally.

The main caps are grooved sorta-- like the mains spun a bearing but they never did. wonder if it's from the caps or bearings shuffling under continuous revs, or something like that. The outer edges of the main bearings show different wear/coloring than the middle of the bearings too.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

"The outer edges of the main bearings show different wear/coloring than the middle of the bearings too."

This is caused by either out-of-balanced flywheel and too many r's, or cyclic precession and too many r's.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

crazymike wrote:

"The outer edges of the main bearings show different wear/coloring than the middle of the bearings too."

This is caused by either out-of-balanced flywheel and too many r's, or cyclic precession and too many r's.

Well, you and I both know that it only hits about 5300-5500 rpms max. I guess that it could be too many revs, but my money is on it all being too out of balance.

Re: 3 cyls at +.030 and 1 cyl @ +.040 Whatdoyouthink?

On a side note, I believe it was Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins who had all pistons/ bores except #1 oversize in the NHRA Pro Stock division.  He knew they only checked #1.  He got caught when the tech people could eyeball the size difference with the head removed. (went to the well one too many times)

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