Topic: polishing a pigs ear?

If I spend a great deal of time shining, polishing, and in general making the car tidy, will I get penalty laps? 
I mean I can't embaress the Queen.  One simply doesn't do such a thing..

2 (edited by m610 2010-09-01 05:13 PM)

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

We spent a lot of time and very little money making our car clean and pretty, partly because it started out such a filthy stinking mess, and partly because that just the way I am.  We got more than a bit of criticism because it made the car look $$$$, until you got close enough to see the many small dents and the cheap paint roller fuzz embedded in the lemon-peel yellow paint.

Some people may want to be the first to hit your car, but we also heard from a team that was afraid to pass us because the car was so pretty. (I hope it can stay that way for a while, partly because the car is becoming rare and I'd hate to see it destroyed.)

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

If you start with a nice car - miata, e30, porsche, etc. - you would be best off not doing a thing to the outside. 

But I would clean the cockpit out as much as you can.  Make it clean, pretty, and remove anything that would restrict you getting out of the car in a hurry.  Zip tie wires outof the way, fill any holes in the body, etc.  and you should be good.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

But I would clean the cockpit out as much as you can.  Make it clean, pretty, and remove anything that would restrict you getting out of the car in a hurry.  Zip tie wires outof the way, fill any holes in the body, etc.  and you should be good.


Vacuum EVERY nook and cranny inside the car, have a team member do the same, then do not trust him and do it again.  At race speed all sorts of stuff begins blowing around and aims directly for the cracked shield of your helmet, where the eyeball magnets immediately absorb it.....  Also defog the inside of your windshield with whatever you can get your hands on.  During the last frogdrowner at CMP visibility was zero in many cars.  As far as the outside, if it is part of the theme, go for it!  Otherwise, go with what you feel like.

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Re: polishing a pigs ear?

m610 wrote:

We spent a lot of time and very little money making our car clean and pretty, partly because it started out such a filthy stinking mess, and partly because that just the way I am.  We got more than a bit of criticism because it made the car look $$$$, until you got close enough to see the many small dents and the cheap paint roller fuzz embedded in the lemon-peel yellow paint.

Some people may want to be the first to hit your car, but we also heard from a team that was afraid to pass us because the car was so pretty. (I hope it can stay that way for a while, partly because the car is becoming rare and I'd hate to see it destroyed.)

I was thinking of,   Well the whole dang engine is aluminum and it would look pretty all polished and shiney.   PLus then I wouldn't have to tell the locals where the demolition derby was being held..

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

Mick25 wrote:

But I would clean the cockpit out as much as you can.  Make it clean, pretty, and remove anything that would restrict you getting out of the car in a hurry.  Zip tie wires outof the way, fill any holes in the body, etc.  and you should be good.


Vacuum EVERY nook and cranny inside the car, have a team member do the same, then do not trust him and do it again.  At race speed all sorts of stuff begins blowing around and aims directly for the cracked shield of your helmet, where the eyeball magnets immediately absorb it.....  Also defog the inside of your windshield with whatever you can get your hands on.  During the last frogdrowner at CMP visibility was zero in many cars.  As far as the outside, if it is part of the theme, go for it!  Otherwise, go with what you feel like.

I don't trust a vacum to do it's thing.. even a 13 amp shop vac..
  However 125PSI air hose carefully aimed at each seam and in every corner etc..  will easily dislodge anything loose..
As for windshield?   they weigh too much!  Plus then you have to have wipers and probably even a demisting system..
  Remove the windshield, cut off the top, Stretch a tarp over the interior and you've lost weight, reduced drag and elimiinated something that will fail (remember wipers are made by Lucus Prince of darkness)
The roll cage will add back any stiffness lost by the roof and for large stout gentlemen such as myself make entering and exiting the car a whole lot eaiser. 
To be really cool I might leave a vestage windscreen in place just high enough to cover the mirror and direct the air up and over my helmet..

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

All the above is nice, but to really clean out the interior you need to remove most of the windows and drive it in a Lemons - works every time.
~some have said that trailering it through a hurricane does a good jb, but I have not first hand experience with that.

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

I was driving in the Spring CMP downpour and couldn't see a damn thing. The in-car shows a grayish white with two black stripes going back and forth. big_smile Modifications are underway to add a defogger for next year, 'just in case'. But I couldn't imagine being in that HEAVY rain with no roof or windshield.

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

Junkyard Dog wrote:

I was driving in the Spring CMP downpour and couldn't see a damn thing. The in-car shows a grayish white with two black stripes going back and forth. big_smile Modifications are underway to add a defogger for next year, 'just in case'. But I couldn't imagine being in that HEAVY rain with no roof or windshield.

I 've raced in rear frog swampers.  Windshields are something to look over rather than through.. A decent coating of RainX on the shield and it's a blast to run past sedans who are desperately trying to wipe the inside of their windshield.
    Sayers back in the 1950's did the calculations for the height of wind deflectors.. and found out for evey inch above the recomended height  the car lost 4 mph top speed down the mulsane straight.. Both Moss and Hawthorn ran at recommended height and they were as much as 14 MPH faster than teammates in identical cars..
My point is roofs add weight (up high where it's not needed) The rollcage if properly designed will put back all the stiffness of a roof.  windshields add frontal area, A simple tarp over the passengers side and back seat area will eliminate the drag at nominal expense. You can eliminate windshield wipers, the weight of a glass windshield the weight of a roof and lower the center of gravity..
The only negative is at speeds in excess of 150 your helmet will buffit around a lot. Better have some really serious neck muscles

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

In our firebird, we cleaned the interior (the sheetmetal thats left) really well and then painted the entire interior. It made the cockpit a much nicer place to be. We left the exterior dented, 5 colors of red, and flaking clear coat. Too much to the outside definately improves the overall look and therefore perception of value.

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

to resolve the buffeting, you may want to look into a seat that has side protection for the helmet, and perhaps a NASCAR Modified windscreen. it's this little half-cone Plexiglas piece that's just big enough to deflect the air around a helmet rather than onto it, if mounted in the right location

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

brianremmers wrote:

to resolve the buffeting, you may want to look into a seat that has side protection for the helmet, and perhaps a NASCAR Modified windscreen. it's this little half-cone Plexiglas piece that's just big enough to deflect the air around a helmet rather than onto it, if mounted in the right location

How many Lemons cars are capable of 150 mph speeds anyway? 
My "D" Jag has a windshield designed to deflect the air over my helmet.  (I followed Malcom Sayers pattern height)
  the buffiting comes from the lifting effect of air over the helmet.. IF you look most formula/Indy car helmets have a spoiler on them to counteract the effect of lift..

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

Both Moss and Hawthorn ran at recommended height and they were as much as 14 MPH faster than teammates in identical cars..

Those guys didn't have a cage.  Round tube is pretty aerodynamically inefficient (like 10x the drag of streamlined shape with the same frontal area).  My intuition is that it's better to leave the roof and windshield in place and roll up the windows for that matter.

That said, we've removed all of the glass except the windshield and have a 70lb, 5ft wide wing on our roof...mounted with round tube.

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Re: polishing a pigs ear?

OMGuar wrote:
brianremmers wrote:

to resolve the buffeting, you may want to look into a seat that has side protection for the helmet, and perhaps a NASCAR Modified windscreen. it's this little half-cone Plexiglas piece that's just big enough to deflect the air around a helmet rather than onto it, if mounted in the right location

How many Lemons cars are capable of 150 mph speeds anyway? 
My "D" Jag has a windshield designed to deflect the air over my helmet.  (I followed Malcom Sayers pattern height)
  the buffiting comes from the lifting effect of air over the helmet.. IF you look most formula/Indy car helmets have a spoiler on them to counteract the effect of lift..

i saw them used at a local short track. be damned if they're getting up over 100mph, even with the relentless gobs of horsepower they produce. it's still a way to deflect air coming at you.

as for round tube vs roof, you can always teardrop the round tube with some thin sheet metal and duct tape (like us vee guys do with our torsion-bar front beams)

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

My stepdad went for a ride in a dirt stocker in NC and was averaging 111mph/lap on an 1/8 mile oval.

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16 (edited by OMGuar 2010-09-11 04:03 AM)

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

that's fast.. I suspect that the word stocker wasn't taken litterly.

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

st_rage wrote:

Both Moss and Hawthorn ran at recommended height and they were as much as 14 MPH faster than teammates in identical cars..

Those guys didn't have a cage.  Round tube is pretty aerodynamically inefficient (like 10x the drag of streamlined shape with the same frontal area).  My intuition is that it's better to leave the roof and windshield in place and roll up the windows for that matter.

That said, we've removed all of the glass except the windshield and have a 70lb, 5ft wide wing on our roof...mounted with round tube.

Well IF I recall it's square tubing that is 10times more drag and round tube only has 4 times..  (I'll check if you'd like me to) 
as to you idea, it's reasonably easy to do a scientific test to confirm your thoughts..  take a model car.. Doesn't have to be your exact model.   just something on wheels that roll..
  Hook up a relatively big fan and a small scale meter Turn on the fan with the roof on side windows up etc.. If no windows, just stick some masking tape, scotch tape etc. on..  See how much pul the car model has..
then cut off the roof as you suggest leave the side windows in place as you suggest and turn the fan back on.   Note that pull number.. finally chop the windshield off make a crude roll cage with plastic staws glued to gether tape over the  the parts of the cockpit the driver isn't at  (use a GI Joe or something as a driver, or simply make a stuffed cardboard driver)  and turn the fan back on..
look at those numbers..
Sure this is filled with inaccuracies but it should give you a clear indication of the best way to go..
If the removed windshield /top has less pull you now have gained a valuable bit of knowledge.  IF not you can inform me and others who will then  likely choose to not run topless.

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

Let's not get carried away here.

I'm not sure what autobahn you are racing your Lemons on, but our last event had an average lap speed of 56mph. The roof is some weight, some visibility, some rain inconvenince, and driver preference. If aero is a big concern, then i expect your cars to have every bug worked out such that the car is a dream machine on track and you are looking to trim those last few tenths. If thats the case, the car isn't a lemon and shouldn't be out there anyway.

19 (edited by st_rage 2010-09-11 07:57 AM)

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

Our autobahn is CMP.  The drag in our car is noticeable to me over ~70mph or so.  I'm sure it's slowing us down on the front straight where we get up to 95mph (indicated, but our speedo is probably off).  Since power required to defeat drag is a factor of speed^3, stuff that doesn't matter at 50mph can quickly become the dominant force at 75mph.  For most cars it won't matter, but we've got a full sized wing bolted to our roof.  I think the wing helps us in the corners enough to make up for the penalty, and the fact that the judges don't even look under our hood helps that much more, but the penalty is no less real.

OMGaur's experiment will work...if you've got a 2000mph fan to keep the Reynolds number constant.  Pretty sure those drinking straws might peel off before you get to Mach 2.  Scale models usually have to get pretty big before you can correlate the results.  If you've really got to know,  take your car out to the track as you do the mods and see what it does to your lap times.

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Re: polishing a pigs ear?

JBgotM wrote:

Let's not get carried away here.

I'm not sure what autobahn you are racing your Lemons on, but our last event had an average lap speed of 56mph. The roof is some weight, some visibility, some rain inconvenince, and driver preference. If aero is a big concern, then i expect your cars to have every bug worked out such that the car is a dream machine on track and you are looking to trim those last few tenths. If thats the case, the car isn't a lemon and shouldn't be out there anyway.

I suspect driver preferance has more to do with resistance than anything.. If that's the case, then please don't remove your roof..
  56 MPH does not mean that you're only going 56 miles per hour all race.
  It means that your top speed is  lets just use say 120 MPH ?..
  Your slowest speed may be 30MPH?  If you spend 1/2 of your time above the  56 MPH figure  then anything that happens at speeds above that should have a big impact..
   The calculations I did was a little less than a 3 sq foot of frontal area would be removed in my car.. 
   Now stick your hand out your window at say 60 MPH.. that's about a 1/3 of a square foot if you expose it to your elbow..  feel that?? that's real solid, stuff,  AIR!  It's solid enough to lift multi ton airplanes high into the sky!
  Now try it with the 3 squre feet I calculated.. Opps you can't sorry about that.. can you imagine what drag it would cause at say 120MPH?
   
   OK You don't see the connection yet.. fair enough.
  If I run in water up to slightly over my waist. It's about 3 sq. ft. of drag..  I can't run very fast if I'm that deep.. I don't think you can either..
   However I'm pretty fast if I ran right at the waters edge..
I'd be even faster if I could figure out a way to run in a vacum..
Drag is drag.. the less you have the better..
  Weight is weight, the less you have the better..
We aren't talking about spending any money.  (unless you consider a sawzall blade as money).
   The tarp?  Well drive by almost any construction site and they throw tarps that wrap the wood that's delivered away. Pull one out of the dumpster  (ask first) and pop rivet it in place and go try it..
  You can always weld the top back on! 
Besides free engineering like that  probably makes the committe guys smile..

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

Guys,
I understand aerodynamics, flow, and resulting forces. In fact, I should be doing some actual work (compressable flows) right now. At MAM, average lap speed (for our fast lap) is 56mph, with top speed under 90mph. The number one factor in our lap time/speed was traffic, not any detail about the car.

If people want to remove the roof or keep it doesn't matter to me. My point is that setting up simulations to look at the earo effects of roof modifications on a lemon is a bit OCD.  Eventually, people obsessing over things and struggling for an edge will destroy the spirit and maybe even the effectiveness of Lemons. Get your crap-can reliable and let's go have fun.  big_smile

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

What you call OCD I call fun.  But in our case it really does matter a bit more:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bTX2MCbyz4c/TAMI569Z75I/AAAAAAAAChs/9wBogm69iMA/s400/DSCF0350.JPG

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http://www.perpetualdownforce.com/

Re: polishing a pigs ear?

JBgotM wrote:

Guys,
I understand aerodynamics, flow, and resulting forces. In fact, I should be doing some actual work (compressable flows) right now. At MAM, average lap speed (for our fast lap) is 56mph, with top speed under 90mph. The number one factor in our lap time/speed was traffic, not any detail about the car.

If people want to remove the roof or keep it doesn't matter to me. My point is that setting up simulations to look at the earo effects of roof modifications on a lemon is a bit OCD.  Eventually, people obsessing over things and struggling for an edge will destroy the spirit and maybe even the effectiveness of Lemons. Get your crap-can reliable and let's go have fun.  big_smile

We aren't connecting..
  I like cars.. I consider myself a gear head..  Now I could use this time to watch TV or wash the windows in this house (108 of them, no not window panes actaul full windows..)
Instead I'd rather debate car stuff..I think I could have a decent repeatable simulater done  and the test run inside 30 minutes. with just junk I have lying around..   Actual data won't be learned.. relative data will.
   I think this stuff is fun! I don't drink or play golf
   Before that I worked to calculate the back spacing on a wheel to arrive at zero scrb radius,   last night when I awoke at 4:00 am (usual time)  I went in search of the exact formula to switch my Jag to ethanol.    Plugged in my engine analizer and got the proper flow numbers to match factory horsepower numbers..  Did a quick reverse engineering of the fuel flow rates. (really easy to do on early Bosch D jetronics ECM since they aren't really fuel injection rather more like an electric carburator.) did the conversion and found out all I really needed was to advance the ignition and put in bigger injectors..
Oh, for safety I'll likely duplicate the fuel pump and use one pump to feed each bank of cylinders..  Since the XJ-s has two fuel tanks stock should be easy!   
The tough part was doing the fuel consumption calculations not knowing what track I'd be running on..  I figured I'd use worst track possible  Elkart Lake  I'd need to refuel every 10 laps Lost time due to refueling assuming efficent crew 1 minute 10 seconds..   So like the BMW's in the European touring car series I'd be a lot faster than the BMW's but I'd have to stop often to refuel..   I estimate I'd be about 6 laps behind at the end of 7 hours.. If I use gas I'd only be  3.5 laps behind..(pitting every 20 laps instead of every 10)  I assumed at Elkart the BMW's would get about 11 MPG. (most of that track is at WOT {wide open throttle}) over 70% 3 massively long straights.. 
Well I've rested now  back to the shop..