Topic: Old school versis new school.

Looking at wheels and tires..  basically the same price I can buy old school 295/50X15 tires and get the same tread, Diameter and section width as a 285/40X18. While the wheel weight is lighter on the 15 inch rim the tire weight is heavier.  Bottom line the package for both weighs the same.   
  Shopping around I can find similar wear rating numbers for both.
Is there any reason to select one over the other? 
Anybody read anything in one of the magazines that made a case for one over the other?

Re: Old school versis new school.

While the diameter and width are close between your two examples, the 15" has a 5.8" sidewall and the 18" has a 4.5" sidewall.

That extra 1.25" of sidewall can be a positive or a negative for the 15" combination.  For an endurance race, it can be good because more sidewall means you can run over more stuff (curbs, bumpers, mufflers, corner worker stands, shrubs, etc) without upsetting the car or damaging suspension components.  But, less sidewall gives you better steering response.

I've always found that you can get a much lighter wheel in 14-15" diameters for a LOT less money than an equivalent 17-18" wheel. 

But, for Lemons... don't overthink it.  Cheap wheels.   Good tires.  (search the forum, there are a handful of "good" street tires to choose from amongst all the crappy ones)

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: Old school versis new school.

PS:

http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

4 (edited by OMGuar 2010-09-08 04:09 PM)

Re: Old school versis new school.

Loren wrote:

While the diameter and width are close between your two examples, the 15" has a 5.8" sidewall and the 18" has a 4.5" sidewall.

That extra 1.25" of sidewall can be a positive or a negative for the 15" combination.  For an endurance race, it can be good because more sidewall means you can run over more stuff (curbs, bumpers, mufflers, corner worker stands, shrubs, etc) without upsetting the car or damaging suspension components.  But, less sidewall gives you better steering response.

I've always found that you can get a much lighter wheel in 14-15" diameters for a LOT less money than an equivalent 17-18" wheel. 

But, for Lemons... don't overthink it.  Cheap wheels.   Good tires.  (search the forum, there are a handful of "good" street tires to choose from amongst all the crappy ones)

I can use Corvette wheels and tires.. same bolt pattern on the Jag. need a spacer, longer studs, and slightly larger locator all simple work on the lathe.
There is a positive embaressment of riches when it comes to wheels and tires..
For Example I can buy real mag wheels (Magnesium, not just aluminum wheels, tons lighter)  and 95% tires for less than the tire alone would cost..
In a lot of junkyards aluminum wheels are worth little more than scrap value and the tires are freebees. (they normally have to pay to dispose of them)
  My thinking is while the steering reaction is faster on a 18-20 wheel, with low profile there is far less compliance which means even with a similar diameter  the contact patch will be bigger on a 15 inch tire than a 20 inch tire.. Steering reaction isn't much on a race track.. maybe in autocross but look at Formula1, INDY, and NASCAR which all work on 15 inch tires.
OH while the wheel is lighter with a 15 inch rim the tire is heavier so the package weight works out similar with a 18-20 rim/tire combination.

Re: Old school versis new school.

Please don't race on junkyard tires.  If that's your plan, you're wasting your time even THINKING about what wheels to use.  Just put some crap on the car and hang on for the ride.

I've done all my research in the realm of 195-225 width tires, but the results in THOSE sizes invariably point to smaller diameter wheels yeilding a lighter overall package. 

For example:  You can get 11-12 pound 15x6.5 or 15x7 wheels dirt cheap just about anywhere.  Tires for those wheels are in the 19-21 pound range for a package weight of 30-33 pounds.

If you up to a 17" wheel, you'd have to spend 3x as much to get down to about 14 pounds for the wheel, and the tires (counterintuitively) are actually heavier at around 20-22 pounds.  Net result is that you spend a BUNCH more money for a package that weighs at least 3-4 pounds more.

Again, don't get too worked up about this for Lemons.  Cheap, durable wheels.  Good tires.  Unless money is no object, look at availalbe tire sizes in the "good tires" and their prices.  The more common sizes will often be considerably less expensive.  If you have a plethora of wheels to choose from, figure out what tire size is cheapest to run, then find wheels to suit.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: Old school versis new school.

I'm sorry but I really have a preferance for junkyard tires..  for $50 or less I can by a tire with at least 90% of original tread plus examine them closely for damage etc. Tires that cost over $300 each new
The loss of 10% or less of the tread through wear is a reasonable trade off.. brand new tires do wear out rather fast compared to tires that have some use..
  When I race vintage tires I use them for one session and then take them off untill the next event. That makes the tires last a full season plus and while there is some minor loss of performance with cycled tires. I have used tires green and find out they are so badly worn after one weekend that I need to replace them every weekend.. If I race 6 vintage events in a year that could cost me over $5000 for the season.. Or I can spend $850 a season..
To me it's a no brainer..
  New tires look to cost around $200 each for the sizes I would use for Lemons.. That's an additional $800 entry fee.  In an event where if you drive to full potential you are likely not to finish..  Used tires would cost me about $200. Now perhaps the additional $600 isn't critical to others but I'm simply too cheap..
   Powerful cars tend to eat tires and I wouldn't be surprised if a set of them wouldn't last a full weekend..
    Incidently I'm in very good company.. Old Yellar used to raced on recaps against the might of Europe.. Tires that drove on the road raced and then drove home again.. Recaps that cost $11.00 each..

Re: Old school versis new school.

Stamped steel 16" Camaro wheels will have a wide variety of tires available and will bolt right up. Unfortunately we have been unable to find any. I can't remember which years off the top of my head - some of the later wheels have too much backspacing.

We got 6 15x8 steel Chevy wheels donated to our team, but 225/50R-15 tires are a tad too narrow for them and wider low-profile tires just aren't in production right now.

Re: Old school versis new school.

The Junk Player Special VW Jetta just finished it's 3rd full 24 Hour event entirely on junk yard tires.  In 72 hours of racing we've had one tire shift a belt. Thats it. The rest of the time the tires have performed flawlessly.  We prefer tires that are 'aged to perfection' because they last longer than 'sticky' tires.

Remember, it's never too early to start embellishing the past.

"so there I was, 90mph, sideways on the brink of death ..."

Re: Old school versis new school.

As Erik pointed out, the options for 200 tread wear "sticky" tires in the 15" range are basically 205/50r15.

We just switched from Toyo 225/40r14s to Dunlop 205/50r15s.  So far the Dunlop appear to be faster.  We will find out this weekend.

I suggest at least a 16" wheel since they have some better size options then 15s with similar prices and weights.

I wouldn't make a habit of running on junkyard tires but I did pick up a set of second hand Toyos once from a guy/kid that wrecked his Subi right after he put new tires on.  They were like new and at a fraction of the price of new ones.

We switched to the Dunlops because Toyo quit making our size back in 07 or 08 and he didn't want to buy new old rubber.

If your racing a Jag I don't know how much the tires matter when the car is broke down in the paddock.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Old school versis new school.

If your racing a Jag I don't know how much the tires matter when the car is broke down in the paddock.

We're running Sumitomo HTR200s in 225/50R-15, and after one race the tread is still like new. Then again we only did 106 laps on a 1.4 mile track, so that's only about 150 miles.

Re: Old school versis new school.

Troy wrote:

As Erik pointed out, the options for 200 tread wear "sticky" tires in the 15" range are basically 205/50r15.

We just switched from Toyo 225/40r14s to Dunlop 205/50r15s.  So far the Dunlop appear to be faster.  We will find out this weekend.

I suggest at least a 16" wheel since they have some better size options then 15s with similar prices and weights.

I wouldn't make a habit of running on junkyard tires but I did pick up a set of second hand Toyos once from a guy/kid that wrecked his Subi right after he put new tires on.  They were like new and at a fraction of the price of new ones.

We switched to the Dunlops because Toyo quit making our size back in 07 or 08 and he didn't want to buy new old rubber.

If your racing a Jag I don't know how much the tires matter when the car is broke down in the paddock.

Ouch, well they say the truth hurts, <grin>
I have no love of any brand of tire.. I used to be a slave to Goodyear.  At the time they were in Formula1, NASCAR, INDY, and SCCA then they beat back a a buyout attempt and the company hasn't been the same since..
I stumbled upon a Hoosier dirt stocker which had the right size and an interesting  (classical) tread and raced a Vintage race with them.. At the time they were $54.00 each on sale for $38.00 WOW it's like MY "D" Jagaur was designed for them.. Insanely sticky decent wear rates and It was like I couldn't wear them out.. In fact they are still in my shop with 1/2 of their tread left after 3 seasons.
  None of the others- Goodyear Blue streaks, Dunlops, Avon etc. have ever been as good.. 
   I have enough friends in the junkyard business  that tires would be a minor portion of the expense of racingrather than a major expense..

Re: Old school versis new school.

EriktheAwful wrote:

Stamped steel 16" Camaro wheels will have a wide variety of tires available and will bolt right up. Unfortunately we have been unable to find any. I can't remember which years off the top of my head - some of the later wheels have too much backspacing.

We got 6 15x8 steel Chevy wheels donated to our team, but 225/50R-15 tires are a tad too narrow for them and wider low-profile tires just aren't in production right now.

Why steel wheels?  Aluminum are so much lighter.  If you shop the later Corvettes they actaully offered a real Magnesium wheel that's insanely light. In fact I have my eye on a set of them if I decide to go to the taller rim. 

  Well I've raced on tires too narrow for the rim if you run a little higher tire pressure other than mounting them you shouldn't have a problem. IF you do I suggest you get an old timer to show you the tricks.
I hesitate to advise you on your options because every car is differant and responds to differant tires.
  people running light hondas etc.  need a softer tread compound while heavier cars like my Jaguar will wear them out too fast and require a tire change. 
Several of my thunderboomer buddies (Corvettes and Cameros) can only afford to race NASCAR take offs. They get a deal on tires used in qualifing or only for a few laps, read the sidewalls to make sure all 4 compounds are the same.  (Virtually every track has a differant compound and a differant compound on the left and right side.) Nascar gets a couple of laps and they get a season out of them.
When NASCAR was going to do road races in the rain they had to make 40 bazillion rain tires for the cars and  then they were never used.  So more than a few buddies have NASCAR rain tires that are brand new.

13 (edited by OMGuar 2010-09-09 05:04 AM)

Re: Old school versis new school.

One other thing not metioned so far is what we used to call a Mexican* Gear change.  Changing the differantial to get a better rear end ratio  for more acceration or top speed is time consuming and always assumes there are a bunch of ratios as options..
With a front wheel drive car that becomes nearly impossible.
  Changing the diameter of the tire can offer real benefits.
My "D" Jag has a quick change rear end. Tracks like  Elkart Lake call for a 3.78 ratio while  depending on the weather I need something around a 6.10 at Blackhawk.. Daytona would likely be something near a 3.23 ratio and When running at Ran Furly circus in the Bahamas my 5.10's worked best..  Incidently that is with a long stroke  (4.17 inch)  engine designed during the battle of Briton on fire watch back in 1940. Short stroke buzz bombs ratios will be massively differant but in the proportion..
 
When You can change ratios in a minute or two it's easy to leave the tires the same.
  But running at a track for the first time  how will you know?
That's where a variety of diameters will come in handy. 
I will gladly trade a little stickier tire for a better ratio. 
   Remember in endurance the tenth of a second cornering speed is of little meaning  but the ability to out accerate someone can be big.  Especially in the rain!




* far from a slur that is a compliment.. the brillance of changing tire diameters instead of gear ratios shows how creative some people can be.. The fact that it's creditied to one nationality of people should be a source of pride..

Re: Old school versis new school.

Why steel wheels?

'Cause they're cheap.

Going from 215/70R-15 to 225/50R-15 shortened the tire by a full two inches giving us better gearing, lowering the car an inch, and easing the strain on our brakes all at the same time. Easy money!

Re: Old school versis new school.

EriktheAwful wrote:

Why steel wheels?

'Cause they're cheap.

Going from 215/70R-15 to 225/50R-15 shortened the tire by a full two inches giving us better gearing, lowering the car an inch, and easing the strain on our brakes all at the same time. Easy money!

Cheap?
   Do you know how many perfectly good aluminum wheels are sold for scrap prices eery week in just a small junk yard?
  Name your bolt pattern  (well, except for Renault three bolt)  chances are there are 42 sets sitting around the yard someplace..
   
What happens is young guys buy an old used car and they naturally have to havenew set of wheels on it to be cool.. then they go out and thrash the car for a few months until somethig expensive breaks and they repeat the same thing..  Those wheels on that 15-20 year old shif box may only have a few months use on them. Same with the tires.. `The yard sooner or later has to pay to dispose of the tires.. so trust me they won't hold out for much on them..  the wheels are so much scrap metal usually because very seldom do guys get to wander around a junkyard (for liability reasons, hassles, and some guys just can't keep from stealing stuff) 
  Once the shine is off the wheels they seem to lose all value.