• From: Lockport , IL
  • Registered: 2010-08-22
  • Posts: 76

Topic: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

http://mustangforums.com/forum/members/jd1969-albums-car-stuff-picture33235-lemons-cage2-edited-1.jpg
Rear down bar. I wanted to tie into the shock tower or the frame, but that was not practical on this car. My plan is add gussets to tie to the rear frame section. Is this OK?

http://mustangforums.com/forum/members/jd1969-albums-car-stuff-picture33234-lemons-cage3-edited-1.jpg

Main hoop and diag. brace. The box on the floor is made of 1x1x 1/8th square tube contoured to the shape of the floor and then the 1/8 spreader plate on top, you cannot see it but there is a 1x1 square tube that runs at a 45* under the spreader plate. The 1x1 tube is also welded to the rocker (behind the main hoop tube in this pic).

http://mustangforums.com/forum/members/jd1969-albums-car-stuff-picture33233-lemons-cage4-edited-1.jpg

Front a pillar bar. The floor was a little weak in this area, so I patched it with some sheet metal from a 1/4 panel (same gauge as the orig. floor) then I put two over lapping spreader plates in.

http://mustangforums.com/forum/members/jd1969-albums-car-stuff-picture33232-lemons-cage1-edit-edited-1.jpg

Rear view of the cage. Here you can see the diag. bar and how it ties in with the halo bar and the rear down bar. (yes I know I need another rear down bar on the other side). My rear down bars are at 46.3* and this was a big part of why a put them where I did.
    I just want to see what others have to say before I weld more. I still have the door bars (two on each side) and my harness bar, but those are easy and I don't have questions about them. Does anyone see any areas of concern here?

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  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 526

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Very nice job on the spreader plates, nice clean welds too.
How close to the A pillars are your front tubes?

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3 Reply by Evil Genius (edited by Evil Genius 2010-09-22 10:36 AM)

  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Why are your front down bars so far from the A-pillars?   They should be much farther out. 

Also, the main hoop diagonal should start from about 8-10" from the left upper main hoop bend, that gives you more room for the seat, drivers head, harnesses, etc.     Not a failure, but a point of design that makes other stuff easier.   

  The front down bars, however, are problematic..    Please send me some pics of where they mount...


Edit:

   Ok, so that one pic has the front down bar mount, why is it not pushed out to the rocker?  The further the cage is pushed outward the safer it is.   

-John

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  • From: Lockport , IL
  • Registered: 2010-08-22
  • Posts: 76

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Evil Genius wrote:

Also, the main hoop diagonal should start from about 8-10" from the left upper main hoop bend, that gives you more room for the seat, drivers head, harnesses, etc.     Not a failure, but a point of design that makes other stuff easier.   

  The front down bars, however, are problematic..    Please send me some pics of where they mount...


Edit:

   Ok, so that one pic has the front down bar mount, why is it not pushed out to the rocker?  The further the cage is pushed outward the safer it is.   

-John

On the main hoop diagonal, I did it that way because I felt it was stronger and with where our seat is placed the clearance is not an issue. But I can change it easy enough if you feel it is needed.

On the a pillar bars, I can push them out as well, they are only tacked in. The reason for the placement was to make a 360 weld a little easier. Which brings up a question, can I weld the tube directly to the rocker in order to get a 360 degree weld? Meaning bring the weld up the tube, to the rocker and back down the back side?  I will relocate the the A pillar bars tonight.

All great moments start with the phrase "hey man, hold my beer"
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  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Main hoop diagonal is fine, if it works for you, use it!   

  If you can move the front down bars out, do so.   They are legal as is, but moving them out will add safety.   You can only weld to the rocker if there is a plate on it... And putting a plate there to tie the rocker into your cage is a fantastic idea.

  -John

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  • From: Lockport , IL
  • Registered: 2010-08-22
  • Posts: 76

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Thanks John. So I take it those are the only issues you can see with my cage? My spreader plates under the main hoop are good and my rear down bars are fine, correct?

All great moments start with the phrase "hey man, hold my beer"
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  • DaveH
  • DaveH
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  • From: Delaware
  • Registered: 2009-05-11
  • Posts: 264

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Don't weld to the rocker.  You want a good weld all the way around, and getting between the curve of the tube and the rocker won't be a good weld, unless you have way more mad skillz than anyone I know.  It looks to me like you have a halo bar in there, which would make moving the down-tubes fairly easy.  The biggest thing for those is going to be foot clearance for the driver.  Honestly, after seeing a few Lemons races, the biggest thing the cage is there for is to maintain the roof clearance in a rollover, and not fail under those kinds of impacts.  There just isn't the kinetic energy available in our slow-ass cars to fold a firewall in more than a couple of inches.  The worst-case wreck I've seen was the Celica-Diamante t-bone at CMP earlier this year, and that impact didn't even reach the cage.

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  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

JD1969 wrote:

Thanks John. So I take it those are the only issues you can see with my cage? My spreader plates under the main hoop are good and my rear down bars are fine, correct?

They look good to me, but, (wait for it, the standard disclaimer is coming)   the final say comes at inspection before the race when our tech people can put their hands and eyeballs on it...   I do believe you'll be ok. 
      What race are you prepping for?

-John

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  • RobL
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  • From: Philly area
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
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Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

DaveH wrote:

...getting between the curve of the tube and the rocker won't be a good weld, unless you have way more mad skillz than anyone I know.

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--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

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10 Reply by Evil Genius (edited by Evil Genius 2010-09-23 09:28 AM)

  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

DaveH wrote:

Don't weld to the rocker.  You want a good weld all the way around, and getting between the curve of the tube and the rocker won't be a good weld, unless you have way more mad skillz than anyone I know.  It looks to me like you have a halo bar in there, which would make moving the down-tubes fairly easy.  The biggest thing for those is going to be foot clearance for the driver.  Honestly, after seeing a few Lemons races, the biggest thing the cage is there for is to maintain the roof clearance in a rollover, and not fail under those kinds of impacts.  There just isn't the kinetic energy available in our slow-ass cars to fold a firewall in more than a couple of inches.  The worst-case wreck I've seen was the Celica-Diamante t-bone at CMP earlier this year, and that impact didn't even reach the cage.

Hate to disagree, but, the rocker is the strongest part of most unibody cars and the floor is just one layer of thin steel. I would recommend that you tie the cage into the rocker at ANY chance you get.  I've seen some bad wrecks where the plate simply punched through the floor,  or in a side impact tore out of the floor.  The floor got punched through on the 'Killer Bee'  MGB rollover at Thunderhill, it was rather scary looking.     The Kinetic energy is there.  Many of our tracks see speeds approaching or even exceeding 100 mph...   The sh!t hits the fan at those speeds, and you need to be prepared.  The minimalist thinking 'these are slow crapcans and therefore don't need as much safety'  is flawed. Indeed, with worn suspensions, crappy tires and rusty bodies the cage should be considered possibly more important than on a 'standard' race car. 

   With a modern MIG torch it isn't difficult to weld up and around a vertical tube touching a nearly vertical plate..we do it all the time.


    Please don't back off on cage strength just because its Lemons...Build 'em well and live to race another day...   

   -John

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  • RobL
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Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

I think what Dave was more concerned about was getting a good 360* weld to the floor plate.  You can't do that when the tube is butted against the frame rail.  Running the weld up the rocker can more than make up for that lost strength.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

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  • From: Lockport , IL
  • Registered: 2010-08-22
  • Posts: 76

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Evil Genius wrote:
JD1969 wrote:

Thanks John. So I take it those are the only issues you can see with my cage? My spreader plates under the main hoop are good and my rear down bars are fine, correct?

They look good to me, but, (wait for it, the standard disclaimer is coming)   the final say comes at inspection before the race when our tech people can put their hands and eyeballs on it...   I do believe you'll be ok. 
      What race are you prepping for?

-John

That's fine John, I understand the need to see it and touch it etc. I will be doing the plate to the rocker, I moved the A pillar bars out last night (took all of 15 min).  I also am a big fan of overbuilding things (to a flaw at times). Our cage is spec'ed for cars over 3000 lbs, even though we only weigh about 2400 lbs race weight. I figure there are plenty of better places to try and save a few pounds than a roll cage.  We are prepping for the Autobahn race, and are pretty close to being ready. We still have a kill switch to run, brake lines to fix and a seat to mount.  I look forward to meeting everyone, will you be there? If so find our RV for some after race beverages (that goes for everyone).

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  • Registered: 2009-10-24
  • Posts: 415

Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Dude, take it from me don't f with gussets.  Nothing but a royal pain

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  • Troy
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  • Registered: 2009-04-30
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Re: Cage question (my turn to bug everyone)

Evil Genius wrote:
DaveH wrote:

Honestly, after seeing a few Lemons races, the biggest thing the cage is there for is to maintain the roof clearance in a rollover, and not fail under those kinds of impacts.  There just isn't the kinetic energy available in our slow-ass cars to fold a firewall in more than a couple of inches.

The Kinetic energy is there.  Many of our tracks see speeds approaching or even exceeding 100 mph...   The sh!t hits the fan at those speeds, and you need to be prepared.  The minimalist thinking 'these are slow crapcans and therefore don't need as much safety'  is flawed. Indeed, with worn suspensions, crappy tires and rusty bodies the cage should be considered possibly more important than on a 'standard' race car. 

-John

While we have had plenty of mechanical problems in our pursuit for the Holy Nickel bag, we tend to set pretty fast lap times and occasionally finish well. 

We set our best lap time in the first 2 hours of the race at MSR, it was under two minutes.  We led the race for the first couple of hours until the water pump belt broke.  Our fast lap was the fastest lap of the race for a long time.

We have run as low as a 1:56 on a member day on Lemons tires at MSR. 

The speed of our car scares me much less than the speed of the land yachts with questionable brakes that might ram us.  They have may more inertia than our 2500ish pound car.

Troy

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