26 Reply by OMGuar (edited by OMGuar 2010-09-29 12:58 PM)

  • OMGuar
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Trevor57 wrote:
OMGuar wrote:
Trevor57 wrote:

If you are out of boost on a racetrack you are doing it wrong, so running rich shouldn't be too big of a problem.

What?
Running rich is lousy! It fouls plugs, won't make as much horsepower, and requires more frequent fuel stops..
  You shouldn't limit boost according to the track.. you need to limit boost according the the engine..
  Boost will eventually destroy an engine if over boosted..   Over boosted engines fail with a bang Whereas engines underfueled (because of boost) melt down..
  Really no differance in the end.. However usually a melted engine can be repaired. While a over boosted engine is merely suitable for scrap..

If you are tuning fuel pressure to be stoich at whatever boost you are going to run, then the car will be rich when you are out of boost, but fine when you are WOT.  My point was that if you are on a racetrack you should be either braking, or at WOT 98% of the time, so the small amopunt of time spent at partial throttle is almost meaningless.

Amount of time spent at partial throttle like mid corner? 
Elkart Lake  Wisconsin is one of the fastest  road race tracks in the nation.. 4 miles, 3 big long straights. According to a friend running Indy cars 70% wide open throttle is record lap times.. 
Other tracks have more time spent in finese.
   Tuning to stoich.. is nearly impossible without some sort of  boost sensor. something not in  regular EFI.  Only those with Lambda sensors (O2 sensors here in America) stand any chance at all of of being correct with regard to fueling..then under full boost conditions.. Part throttle fouling plugs is far more likely..  It's like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with a barn painting brush.

  • From: Wheaton IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

On the same track an ITB car, which is closer in power to most Lemons cars will be flat in the corners where a 600 hp car would modulate.  Even with 5 psi, a volvo is not going to need finesse.

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  • OMGuar
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Trevor57 wrote:

On the same track an ITB car, which is closer in power to most Lemons cars will be flat in the corners where a 600 hp car would modulate.  Even with 5 psi, a volvo is not going to need finesse.

You can run the carousel flat out in a ITB car?
  I'm very impressed..

  • From: Wheaton IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

First video I found.  Does this guy sound like he is using partial throttle? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPTP1YK6lhc

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  • OMGuar
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

turn 1, 2, 3,5,6,7,8 definately in the carrosel, canada, (might have been due to traffic) &13  all had throttle modulation.. (watch the tach, turn off the sound) 
However your point is valid.. slightly improved handling and I suspect half of those corners could have been flat out..

  • SteveO
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

My Vote add the Turbo !!!
     We added the turbocharger this year. Took some work espically on the oil feed/return and the exhaust.  But with 3 races on it this year has been a lot of fun. We are running Chicago then finishing up the year in Florida will be 5 races this year. Like any other Volvo engine has still been slow but steady. We are pushing 8+ psi boast and have had no issues other then a popped off hose every so often.  Adds just enough extra power to allow the car to handle even better.

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  • OMGuar
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

SteveO wrote:

My Vote add the Turbo !!!
     We added the turbocharger this year. Took some work espically on the oil feed/return and the exhaust.  But with 3 races on it this year has been a lot of fun. We are running Chicago then finishing up the year in Florida will be 5 races this year. Like any other Volvo engine has still been slow but steady. We are pushing 8+ psi boast and have had no issues other then a popped off hose every so often.  Adds just enough extra power to allow the car to handle even better.

please tell me more..  How did you deal with the added fuel requirement under boost?

  • From: Petaluma, CA
  • Registered: 2010-09-26
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

OMGuar wrote:

please tell me more..  How did you deal with the added fuel requirement under boost?

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  • From: Choctaw, Oklahoma
  • Registered: 2009-11-12
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

We are pushing 8+ psi boast

I thought only turbo VTEC guys with lots of naahs could run that much boast.

  • Zach
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

OMGuar wrote:

please tell me more..  How did you deal with the added fuel requirement under boost?

You're no fun at all, and I'm disappointed that the rest of you haven't tossed this idea out yet:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Vortech- … 500wt_1182

A rising rate fuel pressure regulator would fix you right up, just a couple of pulls with a wideband installed or on a dyno to verify things are within the ballpark and you're set.

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  • From: Wheaton IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

I kind of thought that was a given.  Every cheap turbo car I have had used one.

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  • From: Choctaw, Oklahoma
  • Registered: 2009-11-12
  • Posts: 2,145

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

I'm disappointed that the rest of you haven't tossed this idea out yet:

I did.

Eh. Carb it, put your carb in a box fed by the turbo, and run a rising-rate FPR.

  • From: Chapel Hill, NC
  • Registered: 2010-01-18
  • Posts: 66

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

bottlingguy, welcome to the fray!  Glad to see another '80s volvo team running.

I might recommend that you run a race w/ the car before adding the turbo.. If you haven't really ragged on the car/engine before and/or this is your first race, you're probably going to have a lot on your hands anyways.  Prep/caging is going to be a pain.  Things are going to break.  It might be nice to have a good racing baseline set with the kinks worked out before you jump into the turbo...

but what the hell, this is Lemons.  Turbo!!

I see that you found turbobricks.  Excellent.  Turbobricks is your friend, especially the forums.  The guide you linked earlier will be a great help.. the guy who wrote is has definitely +T'd some cars.  Also check out http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=52466 for more F+T info.

What kind of turbo/manifold did you grab?  Garrett or Mitsu?  The (early) Garretts are bigger, meaning more lag and more boost.. not really what you want to be going for.  The (later) Mitsus are smaller, so they spool quickly but produce less boost.  On the fuel-management questions being asked, you should be okay with small levels of boost.  As mentioned at the end of that guide, your car has EFI, so the computer can compensate for boost as long as you dont out-strip the fuel delivery system.. you should (maybe.. probably) be okay with 4-5lbs of boost.

Good luck!  Come out east when you get it running.. we'd love to have more Volvos at CMP.

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  • From: Petaluma, CA
  • Registered: 2010-09-26
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

I have a garret now but will keep my eyes open for a mitsu... I think we are going to leave it stock for the first couple of races then start to play with it ow boost.  We are putting more effort into the suspension.

vinz are you gonna +T your 16v that would be a sweet ride

1967 Volvo 122s IOE and C class winner with the transplanted heart of the 1800
1971 Volvo 1800 IOE winner! Killed by a k wall
1984 Volvo 245  Angela Lansbury *sold
Established 2011
  • OMGuar
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Re: Turbo or not to turbo

jimeditorial wrote:

Running a little rich has very little effect on HP. but can reduce running temp considerably...better to over fuel than under in an endurance race...

I agree that too rich is better than too lean..
However, we're talking degrees. Massively too rich and the engine won't run.  Massively too lean and the engine goes bang!

The flaw is the suplimental fuel that kicks in  with a cold start kludge.  The cold start injector will start spraying fuel without any regard to how much is needed.. If you kick the cold start injector on at say 1/2 PSI you likely won't have much of a lag issue. However it will be too rich to allow the turbo to properly spool up.
If you wait untill it starts to spool up a bit before you kick the on-off switch of the cold start injector on you'll likely to have plenty of spool up pressure. With a risk of the time in between being too lean.
It's why carburator needles are tapered..
IF you could slightly increase the fuel pump pressure you might be able to cross that transistion point without a big problem.

  • From: Petaluma, CA
  • Registered: 2010-09-26
  • Posts: 333

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

inspiration
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/cavey_03/DSC00168.jpg

Here is the complete build and yes that is a flowmaster on top of the carb
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index … ic=80212.0

1967 Volvo 122s IOE and C class winner with the transplanted heart of the 1800
1971 Volvo 1800 IOE winner! Killed by a k wall
1984 Volvo 245  Angela Lansbury *sold
Established 2011
  • From: Santa Margarita, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-03
  • Posts: 177

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Non charge cooled carb turbo setups are scary, there is no way for the carb to deal with the temperature changes and fuels incorrectly once Pv=NRT starts working.

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