Topic: Turbo or not to turbo

I have a 1984 volvo 245 that has a great motor but its not turbo.  I just got a volvo turbo and manifold for $50 and now my team is divided, run a good solid motor or half way ghettocharge it and take our chances on it blowing up.  What do you all think?

1967 Volvo 122s IOE and C class winner with the transplanted heart of the 1800
1971 Volvo 1800 IOE winner! Killed by a k wall
1984 Volvo 245  Angela Lansbury *sold
Established 2011

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Turbo!    Turbo!   Turbo!   (In my best Animal House voice.)   :-)

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
IOE winner in the Super Snipe -- Buttonwillow 2012
IOE winner in Super Snipe v2.0 -- Buttonwillow 2016
"Every Super Snipe in Lemons has won an IOE!"

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Endurance racing is about reliability.  Sorry, I have to vote for the unsexy option - leave that motor alone!

I'm the doctor who is a wife. Which makes the grease hard to explain to my patients... www.tetanusneon.com.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

The 245 is awesome stock. If you hate winning, but love finishing.

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

the answer, in Lemons, is -ALWAYS- "Turbo!" ESPECIALLY if you have the equipment already. Keystone Kops do very well with their 240-turned turbo setup.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Turbo!  Just adjust the wastegate to run only 4-5 psi since a non turbo motor will have too high of compression.  The volvo B23 is probably one of the most durable engines on the planet, don't over boost it and it'll be fine.  What's your plan for the added fuel needed?

If it doesn't have 2 doors, 3 pedals, and 5 lug nuts per wheel - It isn't a real race car

7 (edited by sergio 2010-09-27 06:40 AM)

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Anarchyjet wrote:

Turbo!  Just adjust the wastegate to run only 4-5 psi since a non turbo motor will have too high of compression.  The volvo B23 is probably one of the most durable engines on the planet, don't over boost it and it'll be fine.  What's your plan for the added fuel needed?

+1

Eyesore Miata runs a ghetto turbo on their Miata with 3-4 psi for reliablility.

I say stick a V8 in there if you want to win.

8 (edited by Buzz Killington 2010-09-27 08:32 AM)

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

doctawife wrote:

Endurance racing is about reliability.  Sorry, I have to vote for the unsexy option - leave that motor alone!

Anarchyjet wrote:

Turbo!  Just adjust the wastegate to run only 4-5 psi since a non turbo motor will have too high of compression.  The volvo B23 is probably one of the most durable engines on the planet, don't over boost it and it'll be fine.  What's your plan for the added fuel needed?

this is why you need to be careful when asking for advice from your competitors:  you will often get bad advice from people who want to be slow so they can beat you.

turbo the hell out of that thing, and don't look back.

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
"Winner" - We Got Screwed, NJMP '11

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Four words....
Hobbs switch engine management.

The Charnal House Geo MetSHO: Turning less laps than a regular Metro, the hard way!

1969 Subaru 360

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Anarchyjet wrote:

Turbo!  Just adjust the wastegate to run only 4-5 psi since a non turbo motor will have too high of compression.  The volvo B23 is probably one of the most durable engines on the planet, don't over boost it and it'll be fine.  What's your plan for the added fuel needed?

Hopefully with low boost it won't be a problem

Crab Spirits wrote:

Four words....
Hobbs switch engine management.

Thanks I am definitely going to check out that Hobbs switch

1967 Volvo 122s IOE and C class winner with the transplanted heart of the 1800
1971 Volvo 1800 IOE winner! Killed by a k wall
1984 Volvo 245  Angela Lansbury *sold
Established 2011

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Real men don't need wastegates!

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

bottlingguy wrote:

I have a 1984 volvo 245 that has a great motor but its not turbo.  I just got a volvo turbo and manifold for $50 and now my team is divided, run a good solid motor or half way ghettocharge it and take our chances on it blowing up.  What do you all think?

The turbo without fuel management designed to give extra fuel during the boost period is going to FAIL!
  Period!
Now you can hook the cold start injector into a boost gauge and Kludge it..    It might stay unmelted.
  However you will find a whole new definition of turbo lag..  as boost builds the engine goes lean. You might be able to increase fuel pressure to offset that but that will mean much of the time the engine is running real rich.. when the boost guage hits the trip numbera fuel will squirt in making things overly rich untill at some point there won't be enough fuel and detonation starts..
   You might also use larger Injectors.. to adjust fuel mixtures..  Have you planned on running an intercooler?   Turbos lead to preignition simply because boosted air is hotter..  Intercoolers solve that issue..
  Do  you begin to see the problems involved with Turbo chargers? If you can't answer each one of those please don't turbo an engine..

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

If you are out of boost on a racetrack you are doing it wrong, so running rich shouldn't be too big of a problem.

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Right. Spool-up shouldn't be a problem, though it may feel a little dull on the top end where it would otherwise make more power (or go boom).

Back in the day, HKS and some others made Additional Injector Controllers to work them. I would model your setup after something they did similar.

The Charnal House Geo MetSHO: Turning less laps than a regular Metro, the hard way!

1969 Subaru 360

15

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

If you turbo you definitely will want an intercooler.  It will help with reliablity as long as increase power.

I know that you can get practically new forester intercoolers for about $25

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16 (edited by EriktheAwful 2010-09-28 06:56 PM)

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

The turbo without fuel management designed to give extra fuel during the boost period is going to FAIL!

Eh. Carb it, put your carb in a box fed by the turbo, and run a rising-rate FPR.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

I was inspired by this article but I am not sure if he actually tried it

http://www.turbobricks.com/mods.php?content=art0024

now after seeing Evil Genius' post I am thinking that I should leave my B23 with 180 lbs on each cylinder alone for my first race

http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=1848

1967 Volvo 122s IOE and C class winner with the transplanted heart of the 1800
1971 Volvo 1800 IOE winner! Killed by a k wall
1984 Volvo 245  Angela Lansbury *sold
Established 2011

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

See, there's the problem. You started reading and researching your decision.



You totally know how cool a turbo sticking through the hood would sound.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

CarRacer wrote:

You totally know how cool a turbo sticking through the hood would sound.

It wouldn't be that cool :) It would be a stock volvo engine with a stock volvo turbo/exhaust manifold with the kludging would be in the oil supply and return for the turbo and the wastegate for low boost and a big ol intercooler

1967 Volvo 122s IOE and C class winner with the transplanted heart of the 1800
1971 Volvo 1800 IOE winner! Killed by a k wall
1984 Volvo 245  Angela Lansbury *sold
Established 2011

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

It wouldn't be that cool smile It would be a... turbo/exhaust manifold with... kludging... wastegate... intercooler

There's a contradiction there. A turbo motor, even in a K-car, is cool.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Our car never ran well.  It still doesnt. 

So to aide it, we went ahead and got a Ford engineered draw thru turbo setup on the cheap. 

Guess what I vote for.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Trevor57 wrote:

If you are out of boost on a racetrack you are doing it wrong, so running rich shouldn't be too big of a problem.

What?
Running rich is lousy! It fouls plugs, won't make as much horsepower, and requires more frequent fuel stops..
  You shouldn't limit boost according to the track.. you need to limit boost according the the engine..
  Boost will eventually destroy an engine if over boosted..   Over boosted engines fail with a bang Whereas engines underfueled (because of boost) melt down..
  Really no differance in the end.. However usually a melted engine can be repaired. While a over boosted engine is merely suitable for scrap..

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

EriktheAwful wrote:

The turbo without fuel management designed to give extra fuel during the boost period is going to FAIL!

Eh. Carb it, put your carb in a box fed by the turbo, and run a rising-rate FPR.

Well getting a carb to run properly under boost conditions is something that eluded most carb manufactures. IN addition That carb box better be free of flaws and sealed up extremely well.. fuel and air sprayed over a hot engine? 
Most Fuel injection systems are rising rate systems.. early Bosch etc. are exceptions to that because Bosch is more of an electronic carburator than any sort of   real EFI. That is it uses electronics as a measuring tool and squirts the injectors according to values  designed into the system.. They tend to be batch fired rather than  true IC units with feedback circutry.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

OMGuar wrote:
Trevor57 wrote:

If you are out of boost on a racetrack you are doing it wrong, so running rich shouldn't be too big of a problem.

What?
Running rich is lousy! It fouls plugs, won't make as much horsepower, and requires more frequent fuel stops..
  You shouldn't limit boost according to the track.. you need to limit boost according the the engine..
  Boost will eventually destroy an engine if over boosted..   Over boosted engines fail with a bang Whereas engines underfueled (because of boost) melt down..
  Really no differance in the end.. However usually a melted engine can be repaired. While a over boosted engine is merely suitable for scrap..

If you are tuning fuel pressure to be stoich at whatever boost you are going to run, then the car will be rich when you are out of boost, but fine when you are WOT.  My point was that if you are on a racetrack you should be either braking, or at WOT 98% of the time, so the small amopunt of time spent at partial throttle is almost meaningless.

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

Re: Turbo or not to turbo

Running a little rich has very little effect on HP. but can reduce running temp considerably...better to over fuel than under in an endurance race...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....