[ Closed ] GREED IS GOOD? (Page 3 of 4)

JT, let's keep the other series out of it, it's clear that you are all sold on "lemon's is the best" even though you admit never have tried Chump. Also, I think it's great that we can have a two sided debate now, without just randomly deleting posts that don't please everyone. The 1 sided debated I am not happy with are in the penalty box, Getting hit from behind under a yellow flag, getting hit in the side, transponder falling off (I really liked that one) 2 off for avoiding a spin in front of us, that's the stuff I wish could be debated with more intelligence at the track. Yes I know that Jay and the gang hear every excuse in the book, but now it's just quilty, shut up and park it. As for inconsistancy of the rules, tell me how one year a team could have 8 black flags and still race? We got 3 and had to park. ?? You keep refering to rule 2.4.... this is a default value that's getting old, man up and stop useing it. You and I simply dissagree about the accepted practices, and that's just it, they are different for everyone.

They would get paid more.

(Buzz and I are flaming each other on another forum on this topic)

We got three BFs in our first (and only) race at T'hill, and deserved them. We didn't really care if others were getting any, or many. We were just there to have fun and be a part of this.

And the point was made several times and seems to keep getting lost in the discussion, the corner workers throw the flags, not Jay and company.

What's your point here?  Are you saying that Jay gets on the radio - watch out for the orange clown car, I want them flagged for every little thing.

No - what happens is that a car gets on the radar of the corner workers and gets watched.  If you made an ill advised pass, a corner will call in and recommend that a car gets watched because they are being agressive.

Because Jay and crew don't see the infractions they made a blanket rule to make it FAIR for everyone.  They have to assume the corner workers provided by the track are competent.  And because they aren't watching they just have to take their word for the black flag call.  To make it fair every black flag is worth a certain mark, and a certain amount of flags gets you parked.  I don't know how it could be fairer unless the Lemons crew got in a helicopter and watched every car.

Just like any referee in any sport, the corner workers have a lot of discretion regardless of what they're told by the race org, and especially in a race like Lemons (versus F1, for example). A lot of stuff that gets called/flagged early in the race gets a pass later in the race. The hand check that is a personal foul in the first quarter of a HS basketball game isn't a foul when the score is tied 83-83 and the clock winding down in the 4th quarter. That's just the nature of calling the game.

Also, if your car generally isn't driven like you're a bunch of d-bags, then you tend to get the benefit of the doubt (and I'm not implying anything here or pointing fingers), so when you do f-up, you might get away with it once or twice. Waving at the corner workers under yellow and generally being polite goes a long way, just like being polite to the ref in any other game tends to result in fewer fouls being called on you.

Nope - the corner workers see the infraction, call it in, and the black flag station gets the flag out for the car that gets called in.  Jay and company don't control anything until the car shows up in the black flag area.  The Lemons crew does not make a decision as to who gets flagged - only what penalty gets served.

The corner workers/track is working independantly with the only line of communication between the track and the black flag area is a chat session on two PCs between race control and where the cars come in to serve the flag.

You get free repairs on yours?   whose di... ummm, how'd you get that deal...    Guess the greed struck the latter-day staffers....

There are exceptions, but most of the time it's one sided because the only accessible witnesses are the corner worker and the accused.  There's not really much room for debate when you have only one credible witness.

Maybe you're completely innocent and you've just got really bad luck, but generally there's plenty of blame to share with the "victim" of every black flag.

Video review would probably make this worse. Every time I watch our videos, I see tons of stuff that could have been flagged (us and the other drivers) but wasn't. Spins, offs, contact, general douchebaggery, etc. I'd hate to have a video review and wind up with the judges having more material against me than less. It's kind of like that saying about it being better to keep your mouth shut and appearing stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

We got put out for the rest of Saturday because of bf's. Two were earned (new drivers went four off in T1), and the other was because someone the outside of me in the first hour in T1 didn't look to make sure it was clear. They skidded out, I didn't, so it was assumed I was at fault. I was flagged, they weren't. Kinda hard to have the driver own up when their car isn't brought in. It wasn't my first black flag. In 9 Lemons races, I've had about a half dozen or so, only one of which I earned (four off in T1 at CMP in Feb, driving at the limit and the brakes faded). When I pulled into the penalty box I shouted "I finally got a black flag I deserved!!!" Phil just laughed at me.

We had one other BF that was dismissed once Jay determined it was the fault of another car and unavoidable. This brings me to an important point, one I've made before: OWN YOUR MISTAKES. If you bump someone, or run them off track, own it. Lemons judges understand that no matter how defensively you drive, there are a lot of cars on track, and not always a lot of skilled/cautious drivers. Red mist is contagious, apparently, and not everyone understands the "endurance" part. We all make mistakes on track. Don't let some poor sap take a penalty because of what you've done.

I've raced Chump Car as well. I enjoyed not worrying about flags, but then with a few dozen cars on a two mile track, contact isn't as big a problem, and when the corner workers go home at dusk but the race goes on for 24 hours, you can't get flagged anyway. Jay's system is designed to discourage asshattery on track to the point where people are unwilling to risk being trailered. I never thought we'd be trailered, but it happened Saturday. Still, three hours off track after 3 black flags isn't the end of the world. You get to return the next day, and you aren't booted for good unless you reach four, or endanger lives. We were black flag free on Sunday, despite zero visibility (no windshield in a downpour) and a slightly faster car (rear gear swap). Was it due to the time-out, or was it just luck?

I say both. The new guys chilled a bit and drove cleanly, and the other cars seemed to be more behaved/less reckless. You can argue that both are a result of the BF system. I liked the trial Jay held in the penalty area. He determined fault by having both teams testify as to what happened and why. We need a volunteer jury for contact cases where both cars claim the other is at fault, just like in real life. Make the team requesting the Jury trial pay $50 towards the Lemons charity (refundable if they win the trial, of course). Let the jury render either a guilty verdict for either team (winning team goes back out immediately with black flag stricken from their record, other team does penalty, regardless of who paid the $50 and requested the trial), or a mistrial (both teams take penalty). That would be both fun and entertaining, beneficial to the team who didn't deserve the BF, and beneficial to the charity.

It IS tough to navigate a field of racers as large as CMP was (101 cars) this weekend without black flags. Even the winners had a couple. Maybe the two/four off rule can be modified to read "Except in obvious cases of avoiding contact". That would cut down on some of the "undeserved" flags. I'd rather see a car go off a few feet then see it hit/be hit by someone not racing cleanly.