• btp76
  • btp76
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: Dallas
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 422

Topic: Why did it break

We did a Lemons grade rebuild on the 302 in our Fairmont wagon.  Rings, bearings, oil pump, gaskets.  Had the heads mag'd.  We tested it at MSR Cresson doing 30 minute sessions and didn't have a problem.  We did one hour of practice before the Houston race and blew a headgasket at the #8 cylinder.  We fixed it that night, but couldn't figure out why it let go.  Started the race and 45 minutes in got the same symptom and assumed it blew in the same spot due to a warped head (one had been hot and I failed to have the decks checked).  Pulled it apart back at the shop and found three cylinders on the other deck leaking to water. 

Warped heads?  Had them surfaced and it only took .0005 to get them flat.  That wasn't it.  Bad deck?  I fogged it with paint and carefully ran a flat file across it.  No low or high spots.  That wasn't it.  Bad torque wrench?  Put it on a calibration machine and it's 1 lb off at 65 lbs/ft.  That wasn't it.  The car has an F350 dually radiator.  It only gets up to 180* on track.  It didn't get hot. 

We did find, by accident, a crushed fuel line under the car.  It did have a high mile per hour, high rpm (5500 - 5800) fuel cut out issue, but it was inconsistent.  I'm wondering if the fuel supply issue caused it to go lean and burn out the fire ring out in the head gasket.

We've been throwing a lot of shit at the wall hoping some of it sticks.  It has performance, as opposed to OE replacement, head gaskets.  It now has head studs.  I've re-torqued the heads once and I plan to do it more.  We've got a friend with a chassis dyno and will put it on the rollers with a wide band.  It's got an 1850 series Holley with the metering plate in the rear.  Apparently it's metered like a #64 jet.  I did up the jets in the primary to 74s long ago.  I haven't heard any detonation, but it's loud as hell in there.

I'm really tired of swapping / fixing motors at the track.  We're at something like 6 motors in four races.  We're doing the 24 in New Orleans in a month or so.  I don't want to spend it fixing the car.

So, why did it break?

Property Devaluation Racing

Drivers wanted for TX races
  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,745

Re: Why did it break

Have you tried new (old) heads? I don't care how well they did getting them surfaced, that shit might be shot.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • Baron
  • Baron
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: DFW
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 2,408

Re: Why did it break

brian, are the head studs a new thing? I dont remember seeing them in your thrashing at any of the previous times.

If you were reusing the factory head bolts, I would put money on that being the issue. They are torque to yield, and are only meant for one time use. With that said, I have reused them several times, and lots of cheapie engine builder shops do also.

If that isnt the case, are you sure you are turning the waterpump the right way for the pump and or the timing cover? I screwed up and did that once, and it caused high head temps and a blown gasket, though the coolant was staying cool, since it wasnt flowing much in the head area.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs
  • btp76
  • btp76
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: Dallas
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 422

Re: Why did it break

Holy crap DJ.  Apparently some 92 and all 93 and up bolts are TTY.  TTYs have a flanged head and the standard ones don't  The studs are new, and I'm pretty sure most of the bolts on the wagon were the flanged type and thus, Torque to Yield.  Bastards.  This kind of thing happens when you've been a Chevy guy for 20 years and start racing shitbox Fords.

Property Devaluation Racing

Drivers wanted for TX races
  • Troy
  • Troy
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,634

Re: Why did it break

I hope it was your studs cause you guys have certainly put in your track side wrench time. 

TTY stuff is a pain in the ass, what was wrong with torque to spec?

The water pump is a good thing to check too.  I want to upgrade my Early Bronco with a 5.0 roller motor and would prefer to run the serpentine belt.  The water pump inlets are on opposite sides and turn the opposite direction so I can't just use my original water pump in place of the newer one.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z
  • Baron
  • Baron
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: DFW
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 2,408

Re: Why did it break

btp76 wrote:

Holy crap DJ.  Apparently some 92 and all 93 and up bolts are TTY.  TTYs have a flanged head and the standard ones don't  The studs are new, and I'm pretty sure most of the bolts on the wagon were the flanged type and thus, Torque to Yield.  Bastards.  This kind of thing happens when you've been a Chevy guy for 20 years and start racing shitbox Fords.

You would be surprised at how much they stretch out when torqued down. Essentially, you were lifting the head off the surface of the block when the coolant pressurized and it was warm. You can *sometimes* get away with a bit of extra torque on them and be fine, or they still lift, or they snap. ARP bolts, or even better studs, are the way to go.

I bought our somewhat running Mustang II for less than a set of TTY bolts for the probe. BOLTS ONLY! I never did see anyone making studs, and didn't feel like searching out some grade 10 bolts in  a metric thread and length, though Im sure they are out there...

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs
  • Zach
  • Paddock Rat
  • Offline
  • From: DFW
  • Registered: 2010-06-07
  • Posts: 36

Re: Why did it break

Troy wrote:

I hope it was your studs cause you guys have certainly put in your track side wrench time. 

TTY stuff is a pain in the ass, what was wrong with torque to spec?

The water pump is a good thing to check too.  I want to upgrade my Early Bronco with a 5.0 roller motor and would prefer to run the serpentine belt.  The water pump inlets are on opposite sides and turn the opposite direction so I can't just use my original water pump in place of the newer one.

Especially torque to angle, very consistent torque readings and they're still reusable. I haven't read any tech papers, but I'm sure they're convinced of the merits of torque to yield for whatever reason.

Amateur Welder, Professional Grinder

No seriously, what could go wrong?
  • From: Toronto, Ontario
  • Registered: 2009-05-03
  • Posts: 1,114

Re: Why did it break

I've had good luck with Fel-Pro (no affiliation) multi layer stuff....something with some conform-ability makes sense with an older engine. Performance head gaskets are often thin to reduce compression height gain and assume the excellent mating surfaces of a built engine. Unless you're running high compression, you shouldn't need a performance gasket...are you trapping steam pockets in the heads? Sometimes getting an expansion tank and the filler cap above the level of the heads works....can't remember the angles in a Fairmont. Is there a tap on one of the heads for a temp sender? You can sometimes tee that and run a steam bleed back to the rad input. Have you back flushed the crap out of the cooling system? This shouldn't be happening with a 302 with cast heads...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....
  • Spank
  • Utter Madman
  • Offline
  • From: Escondido, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-10
  • Posts: 5,864

Re: Why did it break

Probably doesn't work for you guys, but what I started doing with the mini is when I replace the head gasket (and it's either got the varnish coating, copper spray, or both on it) I torque the head on and do a quick set of the valves and then I DON'T PUT WATER IN IT yet. Well, there may be water in the block, but not close to the head.

Anyway, I fire it up for 20-30 seconds or so until I can just feel warmth in the block casting. Shut it off and let it sit about 2 minutes for the heat to radiate through, then retorque the head bolts when it's warm. Theory is (and it's probably faulty theory, but) that the varnish coating/copper coat gets warm and more fluid  and then I squish it a bit more (I always get a bit more torque out of the nuts-- but could be because the studs have stretched when warm).

Knock on wood, haven't had a problem with head gaskets and the same head studs (which were well-used arp ones to begin with) are on their 5th Lemons motor now (and probably their 8th motor total).

Of course, it's a British 4 banger with only 140-160 psi of cylinder pressure at crankover at best.

Spank's Website

  • btp76
  • btp76
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: Dallas
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 422

Re: Why did it break

The gaskets I put on it this time are ROLs.  They're supposed to have a better quality fire ring. They compress to .0038 or so just like a regular gasket.

Troy, we've definitely spent some time fixing this car.  This past time we were sure we'd gotten it right so it was a huge letdown when it broke.  I'm sure the tty bolts are the smoking gun I was looking for.

Property Devaluation Racing

Drivers wanted for TX races
  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: Why did it break

Spank wrote:

Probably doesn't work for you guys, but what I started doing with the mini is when I replace the head gasket (and it's either got the varnish coating, copper spray, or both on it) I torque the head on and do a quick set of the valves and then I DON'T PUT WATER IN IT yet. Well, there may be water in the block, but not close to the head.

Anyway, I fire it up for 20-30 seconds or so until I can just feel warmth in the block casting. Shut it off and let it sit about 2 minutes for the heat to radiate through, then retorque the head bolts when it's warm. Theory is (and it's probably faulty theory, but) that the varnish coating/copper coat gets warm and more fluid  and then I squish it a bit more (I always get a bit more torque out of the nuts-- but could be because the studs have stretched when warm).

Knock on wood, haven't had a problem with head gaskets and the same head studs (which were well-used arp ones to begin with) are on their 5th Lemons motor now (and probably their 8th motor total).

Of course, it's a British 4 banger with only 140-160 psi of cylinder pressure at crankover at best.

I've been doing the same procedure for decades on every engine I build.. 4-6 or 12
Never once lost a head gasket!

  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: Why did it break

btp76 wrote:

The gaskets I put on it this time are ROLs.  They're supposed to have a better quality fire ring. They compress to .0038 or so just like a regular gasket.

Troy, we've definitely spent some time fixing this car.  This past time we were sure we'd gotten it right so it was a huge letdown when it broke.  I'm sure the tty bolts are the smoking gun I was looking for.

Check your fuel system.
  if you lean out cylinders under load the headgasket goes or the pistons melt or the valves melt..
Make damn sure you can pump way more fuel than the carb will ever use..   Hell! use a one inch line if you have to.. OK so a 1/2 inch is big enough, (big grin),
   stock won't cut it if the line is squeezed a little bit or kinked a little, the pump is a bit tired, filter is a little filled, etc..

  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: Why did it break

All this sounds like a lot more than $500 to me.......

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'
  • From: Dallas suburbs. Help me.
  • Registered: 2010-04-21
  • Posts: 145

Re: Why did it break

I would suspect the TTY bolts or the fuel starvation. Is there any signs of detonation on the pistons? Do you guys know anybody else racing with the HEI coil in cap distributor? If none of this fixes it (and for your sake I really hope the TTY bolts fix it - I have seen you guys wrenching at races far too much - though the motor held at TMS well IIRC), I'd be tempted to swap that as the last variable - just for troubleshooting.

You guys turn the 302 to 5800? how many times per lap and for how long? ever had a bottom end failure?  I am just trying to understand what can be done to these things without them coming apart... I don't trust stock american V8's for RPM, but if they can run 6000 in an endurance race and hold together, I can think about gearing differently...

Thanks

  • Mulry
  • Mulry
  • Ayatollah of Rock-n-Rollah
  • Offline
  • From: Dallas, TX
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 4,607

Re: Why did it break

Evil Genius wrote:

All this sounds like a lot more than $500 to me.......

You haven't seen that engine. I wouldn't pay $50 for it with all the trouble they've had with it.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.
  • jw33
  • jw33
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: America, these colors dont run
  • Registered: 2009-05-09
  • Posts: 221

Re: Why did it break

Evil Genius wrote:

All this sounds like a lot more than $500 to me.......

You should see the car..... It is for sure a sub $500 car.

I think you're on the right track with the head bolts. It's not going to be as much of an issue with studs, but make sure the threads are clean in the block and I've always heard/practiced the silver spray paint trick on the gaskets. There is always the T-bird motor.

Shake and Bake
America, birthplace of the missionary position. You're welcome...
  • btp76
  • btp76
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: Dallas
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 422

Re: Why did it break

I don't have $1000 in the whole car cage, tires, and all.

The 302 only has a 3" stroke, so the parts inside aren't moving that far.

The T bird motor has 90 hours of endurance racing on it so it's a viable engine.

Property Devaluation Racing

Drivers wanted for TX races
  • From: Central Indiana...Noblesville
  • Registered: 2010-09-17
  • Posts: 32

Re: Why did it break

This  "Ford" thing is not the problem you think it is.  throw away the head bolts and go to studs...it is the only way... use same pattern when tightening, I usually go an extra 10 lbs on the nuts.  Built a roundy round 302 for a friend in the ARA...they run 40 lap and 100 lap features and it has 2 complete race seasons on it.  32 total races and they turn it at 6800 RPM!   I rebuilt my '94 302 in my F-150 in '01.  Have 267,000 on it now!  No over heating probs nor have we blown any gaskets on either!  For me, studs are the way to go!  As they say..."Built Ford Tough"

Don't worry about things you have no control over!

Captain Morgan's Rumrunners
Central Indiana
  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2010-09-01
  • Posts: 320

Re: Why did it break

CBraden wrote:

I would suspect the TTY bolts or the fuel starvation. Is there any signs of detonation on the pistons? Do you guys know anybody else racing with the HEI coil in cap distributor? If none of this fixes it (and for your sake I really hope the TTY bolts fix it - I have seen you guys wrenching at races far too much - though the motor held at TMS well IIRC), I'd be tempted to swap that as the last variable - just for troubleshooting.

You guys turn the 302 to 5800? how many times per lap and for how long? ever had a bottom end failure?  I am just trying to understand what can be done to these things without them coming apart... I don't trust stock american V8's for RPM, but if they can run 6000 in an endurance race and hold together, I can think about gearing differently...

Thanks

Chevies and Fords can take a lot of RPM if they aren't goobered up and have a decent oil pan under them..  Don't forget they were running Corvette engines for 24 hours clear back in 1950's. Pre dry sump In fact by the late 1950's chevy small blocks were running with the finest European cars, Ferrarri's, Maserati's, etc. and simply out lasting them..
  Back in the 1980's I bought a target master engine*.. stuffed it into a vintage sports car with 3 two barrel carbs and raced for almsot three seasons..  I'd rev it to valve float  (about 5800RPM) and shift. Stock oil pan.

Engine lasted and lasted.. Eventually we spent the money for a high buck motor and retired the engine to the hauler.. (pulling the cars and camper)  did that for a few more years untill I sold the hauler.. about 5 years later the guy I sold it to called me up and said the engine blew up on him.. Wanted to know If I'd do anything for him..
Target masters were the so called crate motors.. simple cheap new engines made about 250 hp..
  As for gearing differantly.
  Stirling Moss was proud of the fact that he perfected the win at the slowest speed technic.
  This was a Formula 1 Race driver of the highest caliper and he understood that to finish first, first you must finish..

  • From: Dallas suburbs. Help me.
  • Registered: 2010-04-21
  • Posts: 145

Re: Why did it break

I don't want to threadjack, so I'll keep this brief...

Thanks for the input. I have a very suspect 302 with a seasoned block, seasoned pistons, seasoned rings, seasoned bearings, seasoned valve guides, etc.  I have seen a lot of similar motors blow the hell up in Lemons (many in btp cars... hence this thread) and the only one I know of that was >200 hours endurance racing durable was reportedly shifted at 4500 (V8olvo). Hence my concern.  I know the motors fresh would run for a while at ~6k, but the 'seasoned' factor is what I don't know how to account for... call me what you will but I have zero desire to swap motors at a race.



OMGuar wrote:
CBraden wrote:

I would suspect the TTY bolts or the fuel starvation. Is there any signs of detonation on the pistons? Do you guys know anybody else racing with the HEI coil in cap distributor? If none of this fixes it (and for your sake I really hope the TTY bolts fix it - I have seen you guys wrenching at races far too much - though the motor held at TMS well IIRC), I'd be tempted to swap that as the last variable - just for troubleshooting.

You guys turn the 302 to 5800? how many times per lap and for how long? ever had a bottom end failure?  I am just trying to understand what can be done to these things without them coming apart... I don't trust stock american V8's for RPM, but if they can run 6000 in an endurance race and hold together, I can think about gearing differently...

Thanks

Chevies and Fords can take a lot of RPM if they aren't goobered up and have a decent oil pan under them..  Don't forget they were running Corvette engines for 24 hours clear back in 1950's. Pre dry sump In fact by the late 1950's chevy small blocks were running with the finest European cars, Ferrarri's, Maserati's, etc. and simply out lasting them..
  Back in the 1980's I bought a target master engine*.. stuffed it into a vintage sports car with 3 two barrel carbs and raced for almsot three seasons..  I'd rev it to valve float  (about 5800RPM) and shift. Stock oil pan.

Engine lasted and lasted.. Eventually we spent the money for a high buck motor and retired the engine to the hauler.. (pulling the cars and camper)  did that for a few more years untill I sold the hauler.. about 5 years later the guy I sold it to called me up and said the engine blew up on him.. Wanted to know If I'd do anything for him..
Target masters were the so called crate motors.. simple cheap new engines made about 250 hp..
  As for gearing differantly.
  Stirling Moss was proud of the fact that he perfected the win at the slowest speed technic.
  This was a Formula 1 Race driver of the highest caliper and he understood that to finish first, first you must finish..