Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Buzz Killington wrote:

weird that the MR2 is the "fast" car and the Crown Vic is the "handling" car.  the wing makes a difference; flattening it on the straights raised our top speed 5-7mph.  with it up on the stright, you could see the downforce compressing the rear suspension.

What did you guys actuate your wing with?  We're thinking of adding active control (rather than our current passive sping) for the Miami race.  Current contenders for actuators include a large pneumatic cylinder and a garage door opener.

Our Lady of Perpetual Downforce
http://www.perpetualdownforce.com/

27 (edited by Buzz Killington 2010-10-12 10:07 AM)

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

power window actuators.  only problem was that it would bind up b/c (i suspect) they weren't running at exactly the same speed.

edit:  d'oh!  no hotlinking from Phil's uber-gallery, apparently.  you want pics 0528 and 0529 for closeups.

the original plan was to run it though a logic box wired to the TPS, but between the box being a little wonky still and the car having multiple more serious issues, Dave just ran a manual toggle switch into the cockpit.

funny...by the time we got done building the wing, we realized it would likely have been easier to go to an aircraft junkyard and grab a piece of Cessna wing.

RobL wrote:
Buzz Killington wrote:
Speedycop wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear how the debodied Vic did other than the leak factor. Was it glued? Loose? Lap times?

it corners and stops really, really well...better than the MR2, we think.  it's neutral and easily catchable if it gets loose.  the steering sucks, though; i noticed 2-3" of on-center free play.

it is quick enough but not especially fast in a straight line; part of that is the crap diff (really tough to put power down out of corners), part is the auto tranny (lots of hunting for gears), and part is that it sat in a field for two years before we bought it.  Dave set our fast lap at 1:50.8, IIRC.

weird that the MR2 is the "fast" car and the Crown Vic is the "handling" car.  the wing makes a difference; flattening it on the straights raised our top speed 5-7mph.  with it up on the stright, you could see the downforce compressing the rear suspension.

Everything that Buzz said... 

I think that the Vic stops better than the MR2 and has better corner entry grip, but the MR2 had better corner exit speeds.  I don't know who set our fast lap - it says lap 6.  Our transponder was mounted incorrectly (first time it didn't work like this and I think that the track wires weren't picking up a lot of cars) so I don't think that we got any of Daves laps.  So it would have been either Mike or Kurt - I don't know who got into the car after we fixed the transponder.

forgot about that...i think it was Kurt, then.  i'm pretty sure we fixed it sometime after my stint.  and i wasn't pushing the car nearly hard enough in my first stint to run the fast time; i was mainly trying not to blow it up (remember when the bearings were our main worry? -- LOL).

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
"Winner" - We Got Screwed, NJMP '11

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Buzz Killington wrote:

power window actuators.  only problem was that it would bind up b/c (i suspect) they weren't running at exactly the same speed.

They were't binding.  Our limit switches were breaking and Dave wired up the motors backwards (one up and one down) once.  The box wired to the TPS also drew some amperage through the TPS and was making our ECU go wonkers.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

RobL wrote:
Buzz Killington wrote:

power window actuators.  only problem was that it would bind up b/c (i suspect) they weren't running at exactly the same speed.

They were't binding.  Our limit switches were breaking and Dave wired up the motors backwards (one up and one down) once.  The box wired to the TPS also drew some amperage through the TPS and was making our ECU go wonkers.

Thanks for the link to the pics.  Sounds like keeping the spring might be our best option!

Our Lady of Perpetual Downforce
http://www.perpetualdownforce.com/

30 (edited by DaveH 2010-10-12 12:31 PM)

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

RobL wrote:

The box wired to the TPS also drew some amperage through the TPS and was making our ECU go wonkers.

Yeah, apparently op-amps don't actually have zero input current.  Go figure.

The redesign will involve an off-the-shelf time delay relay wired to the brake switch and a couple of proximity sensors.  Much simpler, much more reliable.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

I always ran my 4R70W locked in second. Torquey enough to pull out of the corners, tall enough to wind out on the straights, and no shifting meant to heat/wear/slippage/failure.

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
Future Fleet: 1957 Ford Prefect 1942 Buick 1959 Bugeye Project GLCOAT

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Speedycop wrote:

I always ran my 4R70W locked in second. Torquey enough to pull out of the corners, tall enough to wind out on the straights, and no shifting meant to heat/wear/slippage/failure.

We were getting well beyond the capabilities of 2nd gear at the end of the two long straights.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

33 (edited by Buzz Killington 2010-10-12 12:39 PM)

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

st_rage wrote:
RobL wrote:
Buzz Killington wrote:

power window actuators.  only problem was that it would bind up b/c (i suspect) they weren't running at exactly the same speed.

They were't binding.  Our limit switches were breaking and Dave wired up the motors backwards (one up and one down) once.  The box wired to the TPS also drew some amperage through the TPS and was making our ECU go wonkers.

Thanks for the link to the pics.  Sounds like keeping the spring might be our best option!

if you're thinking about running a manual control, i would do it.  our limit switches were breaking b/c they were not the highest-quality pieces; they were what we could find near the track.  the automatic setup through the TPS presents some additional issues as Rob noted, but that is a different matter.

the setup you have looks cool and is providing downforce, but not as much as it could be, and is also killing your top speed.  as i said, we saw an easy 5-7 mph difference at the end of a straight between having the wing up on the straight vs. having it flat.

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
"Winner" - We Got Screwed, NJMP '11

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

T45 and 3.73's will be your friend. Turbo Coupes had the limited slip 3.73 rears, find one in the junkyard and grab the diff out of it. They are both 28 spline, it's a bolt-in. T45's you can find for about $200 if you lowball CL sellers.

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
Future Fleet: 1957 Ford Prefect 1942 Buick 1959 Bugeye Project GLCOAT

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

STS, I think it is weird that your Crown Vic looks a lot more like our MR2 than your MR2 does.  WTF!  smile

http://www.murileemartin.com/LDF10Uber/Detroit_Fall10-1066.jpg

http://www.murileemartin.com/LDF10Uber/Detroit_Fall10-1067.jpg

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Buzz Killington wrote:
st_rage wrote:
RobL wrote:

They were't binding.  Our limit switches were breaking and Dave wired up the motors backwards (one up and one down) once.  The box wired to the TPS also drew some amperage through the TPS and was making our ECU go wonkers.

Thanks for the link to the pics.  Sounds like keeping the spring might be our best option!

if you're thinking about running a manual control, i would do it.  our limit switches were breaking b/c they were not the highest-quality pieces; they were what we could find near the track.  the automatic setup through the TPS presents some additional issues as Rob noted, but that is a different matter.

the setup you have looks cool and is providing downforce, but not as much as it could be, and is also killing your top speed.  as i said, we saw an easy 5-7 mph difference at the end of a straight between having the wing up on the straight vs. having it flat.

Screw that. Just build an f-duct and be done with it. If even Team Force India can figure out the f-duct, surely STS can. smile

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Mulry wrote:

Screw that. Just build an f-duct and be done with it. If even Team Force India can figure out the f-duct, surely STS can. smile

LOL - All weekend I kept saying that we needed a magnet on the back of our gloves to activate the wing.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Stevo wrote:

STS, I think it is weird that your Crown Vic looks a lot more like our MR2 than your MR2 does.  WTF!  smile

I would say that your MR2 looks more like our Crown Vic than our MR2.  wink

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Mulry wrote:

Screw that. Just build an f-duct and be done with it. If even Team Force India can figure out the f-duct, surely STS can. smile

Hmmm... I like that.  Who says a turbo needs to feed air back to the intake?

As for the driving dynamics, the wing made a big impact.  The few corners I left it down for it got very loose on entry and you had to wait longer to put the power down.  It was quite fun to experiment with.

With the wing up, we had enough downforce to take turn 5 pretty comfortably at full throttle, it was very confidence inspiring.  And stupid inspiring.  If I scared anyone by passing on the inside there at about a 15 mph closing speed, I apologize wink

Kurt Krumm
STS
Current car: who the hell knows
Prior offenses to sound judgment: Toyota coROLLa, Audi 80, Toyota MR2, Ford Crown Vic chop job

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Why a turbo?  Just route the exhaust through a valve.  Done.

Our Lady of Perpetual Downforce
http://www.perpetualdownforce.com/

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Why a turbo?  All kinds of reasons.  Its a silly use of a turbo, it already has a valve, exhaust gas would melt the fiberglass, and the turbo whine would be entertaining while producing as little performance benefit as possible wink 

I'm pretty sure rob has some questionable turbos lying around his garage which I wouldn't trust to use for their intended purpose.

Kurt Krumm
STS
Current car: who the hell knows
Prior offenses to sound judgment: Toyota coROLLa, Audi 80, Toyota MR2, Ford Crown Vic chop job

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

RobL wrote:
Mulry wrote:

Screw that. Just build an f-duct and be done with it. If even Team Force India can figure out the f-duct, surely STS can. smile

LOL - All weekend I kept saying that we needed a magnet on the back of our gloves to activate the wing.

Demented minds think alike...

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

Wait, did the green neon get busted? Cause when I was behind them, every left turn they made I would see fuel pour out. My only goal was to get around them to avoid it. I did, but had no way of letting my team know the other car had such a severe leak.

Rally Rolla: 2010 American Irony 2010 25th, 2010 Blagojevich 500 11th
Nohow Racing Audi: 2010 Bull Oil GP 22nd?

Re: What's with all the fuel leaks at Gingerman?

actually i think -both- green neons got trailered for fuel leaks.