Topic: Weird sound as revs drop

As of yesterday we managed to get an engine to actually fire up while mounted inside our car.  I'm shocked at how well it runs honestly, but there is one thing that has me a little worried.  If I rev it up to about 4,000 rpm and then let off the gas completely and suddenly, the engine makes an odd grinding sound as it spins back down to idle.  It's not terribly loud, so part of me think's I'm just looking for problems that aren't there, but I've never heard this from any other car that was running well.

Does anyone know what would be causing this?  Is it something I need to be worried about, or is this just to be expected from a 23 year old engine?

For context, the engine is a N/A straight 6 out of an 87 Supra.

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Check the belt tensioners, cam and drive belts.....I think those are the engines that need a higher torque than normal for good head sealing...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

mikedeck wrote:

As of yesterday we managed to get an engine to actually fire up while mounted inside our car.  I'm shocked at how well it runs honestly, but there is one thing that has me a little worried.  If I rev it up to about 4,000 rpm and then let off the gas completely and suddenly, the engine makes an odd grinding sound as it spins back down to idle.  It's not terribly loud, so part of me think's I'm just looking for problems that aren't there, but I've never heard this from any other car that was running well.

Does anyone know what would be causing this?  Is it something I need to be worried about, or is this just to be expected from a 23 year old engine?

For context, the engine is a N/A straight 6 out of an 87 Supra.

Only you can investigate to see what the sound is and where it's coming from.
  Apparently this is repeatable so it should be something you can listen to..
  Let's start out with facts first shall we?
If it's a noise it's not going to fix itself.. in all likelyhood it will cause as much problem as possible during the race and that includes the things you are afraid of.
So let's identify it and see what can be done or what should be done..
  I have a stethscope. Something I paid a dollar for in one of those tool bins decades ago..
Prior to that I would use a long screwdriver, a rod, a long socket extension, anything to conduct the sound from where it was occuring to where I could hear it... Just prior to getting the stethscope I had a long (about 4 foot) brass rod that on the listening end I bent into a tight loop.  The rod was about 1/8th inch thick brass welding rod.. Could have been almost anything..   Put one end of the metal rod on the suspect area and the other end put right against your ear.. If you have to bend it  to get it into the suspect area it's OK! straighten it when you are done, (or not!)
  Now start out with a known good engine.., Your daily driver for example.  Start at the accessories first (they're easist to deal with) Put your rod right on the alternator.. (carefull to keep hands fingers head etc. clear of moving parts but you can slide the rod etc. into areas close to moving bits if you take great care.
Your alternator if it's in good shape should have a whirring sound.. no Squaling no grinding just a steady whirring sound.. OK go listen to the race car's alternator..
  if you hear a similar sound well you can be reasonably sure the alternators OK
   Now slide the rod or whatever as close to the nose of the water pump, watch out for fan belt etc.. but you should be able to do it..  Listen carefully and you should hear a sloshing but also a whirring sound..  That's good.. Now switch to the suspect car.. if the water pump sounds the same you again in luck, grinding knocking etc.. means it's time for a new water pump.
  I don't know how to tell you about rubber timing belts,  I've no experiance.. Timing chains on the other hand are best listened to when the engine is cold upon start up.   Stick your pickup down near the crankshaft on the timing cover.. You can actually hear the chain.  any snatching, slapping,  or knocking and it's time to replace.. Listen down at the crank and up at the camsghaft/s.  The most telling will be the area between the crank and camshaft.. it will be running on a guide and it's at it's worst there..
  Now stick the rod on the bottom of the engine block about 2-3 inches above the pan and listen.. the crank will be smooth and quiet, rumbling is a precursor to the bottom end dropping out  any knocking is likely to be rod knock with one cylinder likely noisier than the rest..
Check all the main bearings and all the crank throws.. (basically line up with the sparkplug down on the engine block)
OK slide the rod up to the camshaft/s Ticking is perfect.. clattering might be OK if not too loud and any knocking etc.. is cause for immediate attention..
  Check the oil pump.  You can hear it's whirring and sucking sounds..if in good shape.. Then slide the rod up around the base of the distributor. 
  OK if you have fuel injectors.. check each one of  those too.  a sharp clean clicking, ticking, slapping, sound is good..  A softer sound indicates a dirty injector.. no sound means the injector is completely plugged..
  Disable the ignition and listen to the starter.. the solenoid if in good shape will be that slight click just before the starter cranks.. a zap indicates it's time for a new solenoid..    the starter should crank over at a steady pace assuming the battery is fully charged and the starter isn't worn out. 
   So know, tell us what the sound is.. or at least exactly where it's coming from..

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Tip: Harbor Freight has a "mechanic's stethoscope" for $5.
http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics- … 41966.html
Incredibly handy tool for pinpointing phantom noises. cool

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Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Good write up for us all and agree the use of a stethascope is a great way of getting used to your engine sounds when it all works and then listening for issues just as described above - thank you!

Is it because I is an E30 owner???

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

I feel like I am an episode of "Click & Clack" the car guys.
You know, the radio show. Hmmm.... explain the sound to me Uh! Huh! and how does that really sound? Could you make the sound for us so we can get an Idea of where it's coming from. Oh... I know that sound! That's the rear wheel bearing from a 1979 Chevy blazer, you gotta get that fixed right away!

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
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Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Is it a grinding, or a clattering?

It's a 7M, so chose from the following.
A.Blown Head gasket (Not necessarily the cause of the sound, but hey)
B.Bent rod from previous BHG hydrolocking incident
C.Piston slap caused by cylinder corrosion from previous BHG
D.High mileage rod bearings

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1969 Subaru 360

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

I'll guess it's a rod bearing.

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

I would have said a rod bearing knocks horribly rather than grinds, especially on feathering rather than over run.....it could be old seals complaining about having to work or pully bearings at a guess!

Is it because I is an E30 owner???

10 (edited by Bender/StickFigureRacing 2010-10-14 11:42 AM)

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

I hope you figure out the noise. Our MR2 had a hell of a grinding noise that you couldn't hear until you let off the gas. We took off the Alternator belt and it was gone. The bearings on the alternator were gone. On another note the 7M-GE is a good motor with only one flaw, their know for blowing head gaskets, bring a spare gasket kit with you to the track just in case.

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

This thread is pointless without video. :-/

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

This thread was made by OMGuar's post.  As someone who has not been a lifetime auto mechanic,  I appreciate this sort of insight and instruction.

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

ronman wrote:

Tip: Harbor Freight has a "mechanic's stethoscope" for $5.
http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics- … 41966.html
Incredibly handy tool for pinpointing phantom noises. cool

What a great bit of information!
   thank you!
   I'll pass that along..
  a stethscope makes diagonsing an engine really a piece of cake..   just put a mental image of the internals in your mind and put the scope up to that spot and listen.. your engine will tell you.. If you aren't sure listen to that spot on a known good engine..

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Sorry for the really generic request for help without any real information to go on.  I think my primary question of "is it normal for an older engine to make odd sounds as the revs drop" has been answered.  I'll get a stethoscope and see if I can figure out where it's coming from.

Thanks for the help as always.

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

are you sure its coming from the engine and not the trans or torque converter? You didn't mention whether or not it was an automatic or manual.

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

@steve, actually as I was laying awake last night I was thinking that it might actually be the clutch or trans.  It's a manual tranny, and now that I think of it the sound is similar to grinding gears, just much less severe.

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

What those guys suggested with a stethescope is great I also used to use a piece of fuel line to my ear. Just be careful you dont touch something moving while you do it or you wont be able to hear for a while.

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

7M-GE is famous for blown head gaskets and ensuing rod-knock. Even without a blown head gasket, you'll still end up with knock eventually.

Noise on decel= rod-knock

Trust me on this one, it's time to pull the motor and go through it before it gets worse. Not a great motor choice for Lemons racing unless you plan on rebuilding it.

Amateur Welder, Professional Grinder

No seriously, what could go wrong?

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Piece of 1/4" fuel hose held up to one ear, with an earplug in the other, makes a pretty good stethoscope, btw.

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Zach wrote:

Noise on decel= rod-knock

I obviously have very little experience working on cars so please excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't you hear a rod-knock even when the engine was idling or accelerating?  Also isn't a knock more of a repetitive tapping sound that varies in tempo with RPMs?  This is not a tapping sound at all, it sounds vaguely like grinding gears.

Either way, I should get a chance to go listen to the car with a stethoscope on Monday so I should be able to get a better idea about exactly where the noise is coming from.

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

I'm decidedly not my team's mechanic but I like to hear myself talk, so - if it's on deceleration it sounds like something is loose in its bearing, so when it is under power it gets held in position but then vibrates around when it freewheels. Could it be the transmission input shaft maybe? Does it still do it with the clutch disengaged?

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Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Rod bearings just starting to go will rap louder on deceleration when there's no load on the engine and rap louder on acceleration under load.  Once they get good and loose, it wil rattle on acceleration with no load. BTDT.

Another long shot: I'm not real up on the Supra six banger but if it has one of those hydraulic cam belt tensioners they will make some stupid noises if all the fluid leaks out.

But the best thing to do is isolate the noise to the engine itself. Remove the alternator belt and try it again.

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Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Junkyard Dog wrote:

Rod bearings just starting to go will rap louder on deceleration when there's no load on the engine and rap louder on acceleration under load.  Once they get good and loose, it wil rattle on acceleration with no load. BTDT.

Another long shot: I'm not real up on the Supra six banger but if it has one of those hydraulic cam belt tensioners they will make some stupid noises if all the fluid leaks out.

But the best thing to do is isolate the noise to the engine itself. Remove the alternator belt and try it again.

Loose rod bearings will definately have one bearing sound louder than the others..  In fact it's not unusual for only one or two rod bearings to be bad  Listening to the block will identify the differance between bearing sounds caused by mains or rods..   Line up with each spark plug and then listen an inch or two above crank cenerline..

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

mikedeck wrote:
Zach wrote:

Noise on decel= rod-knock

I obviously have very little experience working on cars so please excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't you hear a rod-knock even when the engine was idling or accelerating?  Also isn't a knock more of a repetitive tapping sound that varies in tempo with RPMs?  This is not a tapping sound at all, it sounds vaguely like grinding gears.

Either way, I should get a chance to go listen to the car with a stethoscope on Monday so I should be able to get a better idea about exactly where the noise is coming from.

It's tough to distinguish valvetrain/injector noise from bearing issues, the 7M has an especially noisy valvetrain typically and the injectors can make quite a bit of racket. Rod bearing noise is significantly louder when you change the rate of acceleration, i.e. rev up to 3krpm slowly then back off throttle completely and you should hear it chatter pretty nicely. The only other suggestions I've got would maybe be a bad bearing on the timing belt tensioner, but I've yet to see one make noise.

Do you know any history on your motor as far as miles or any rebuild history? They age gracefully as long as they're not abused. Not a motor I'd want in a race car without going through it. These motors only made around 10-20psi oil pressure at idle with supposed high-volume when they were new, so they're very prone to oiling issues as they age. NA motors will have a bit higher oil pressure, as the turbo motors had oil squirters and ran a bypass oil cooler that bled off some pressure. Let me know if you want me to come take a peek at it.

Amateur Welder, Professional Grinder

No seriously, what could go wrong?

Re: Weird sound as revs drop

Well, I finally got a chance to go work on the car again last night, stethoscope in hand, and magically the noise was gone.  I listened to everything and could not reproduce the problem.  The only thing that changed was that it was up on jack stands when we first got it running last week, and this weekend my friend put the wheels on and rolled it out of the garage and then back in after he cleaned some things up.  Makes me wonder if we had the tranny partially engaged or something weird like that and we just didn't notice the rotors spinning.  I have a hard time believing that, but I can't come up with any better explanations.  If It comes back I'll certainly know how to start diagnosing.

As this thread has made painfully obvious, I have no idea what I'm doing, and I certainly have no business trying to build a race car.  I really do appreciate all the help from everyone despite my naivete.  When I decided to get into Lemons my goal was to have a good time and learn a little about cars.  Thanks to you all I think I'm accomplishing both pretty well.