Topic: BS Inspection Recidivists

I hesitate to bring this up since I don't want to be known as the whiny bitch to bring this up, but some of us were talking and...

What happens to the wayward, once the subject of much scorn, ridicule and penalty laps by the Lemons Supreme Court, when they return to race again?

Does the residual value start at $500+(BS Laps x $10)?  For example, 38 penalty laps at an event would result in a residual value of $880, theoretically requiring the shedding of $380 worth of cheatonium to get back to zero penalty laps.

Without mentioning any 2 cars by name that finished in the top 3 at Gingerman, we noticed that certain cars have incurred the wrath of the Court in events past only to move through subsequent BS Judgings unscathed.  Have these one-time sinners reformed their ways?

I realize that racing damage/wear/blowups, major baksheesh and completely awesome re-themes do sometimes occur, resulting in the good favor of the Court.

However, it would seem that even in the absence of these events, time and familiarity might lead to a certain acceptance (acquiesence?) from the Court.  Why the zeros?  I ask you, sir, WWCD?  What Would Che Do?  No, he'd line 'em up against the wall in the FIRST instance of cheating, so perhaps that's not the best rhetorical question.  "What Would Mike Helton Do?" No, his past is too green-white-checkered.  "What Would Max Mosley Do?"  Yeah, that's it, and give us the long answer, sado-masochism, Nazi hookers, mountains of blow, etc.

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

I'm guessing it is all based on residual.  If Jay gives your cheaty $380 over car a residual value of $500 or less and the money you spend on your car after residual adds up to under $500 you get a 0.

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Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

I think it's just arbitrary, unless you particularly stand out as a cheaty douche and give the judges a reason to remember you. The average slightly-cheaty E30 that gets 20 laps isn't that big a stand-out in the grand scheme of things...

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Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Don't give yourself so much credit.  They won't remember you next time.

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

I know my 487.00 (300.00 residual) car was looked at w/ a critical eye.  The stuff that was new for the first BS was accused of having been put on for the second race, along w/ 108.00 of new struts.  The problem w/ putting on new stuff is that 24 hours later, it still looks new. Then Jay looks under the intercooler and questions, "is that a new turbo?  There's fresh paint on it."  I then realize, and have to prove that when the shock tower was repaired, overspray from the repair hit everything around it.  Not that we were threatening for the overall, but I would've hated starting 20 laps down for the stock 171k mile turbo.

I was trying to figure out how some of the front runners were obtained for under 500.00, but I'm also being given a BMW 2002, so I've got no room to talk.

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Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Don't bring cheaty cars and you won't have that problem.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Trevor57 wrote:

Don't give yourself so much credit.  They won't remember you next time.

RobL wrote:

Don't bring cheaty cars and you won't have that problem.

No, you guys don't get what I'm asking.  I remember them.

Let me try asking this again using small words and short sentences.

Guys bring cheaty cars to the race.  They get BS laps at that race.  They come back to the next race with presumably the same cheat-ass setup.  They don't get any BS laps.  What gives?


In before "Don't take it so seriously, douche."

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

It really is a matter of what happens during the race and what the judges feel is an appropriate residual value.  If you get docked laps for semi-cheaty parts or because you admitted to being over budget your penalty is served at that race.  Technically over time you could develop a decent car but you better keep all of the documentation since day one.  Even then you aren't guaranteed anything.

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Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

They remember. There was a car @ ECR in June that made it through with 0 penalty laps, then went out and turned the fastest lap of the race. At MSRH in September, the same car got hit with 20 laps.

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Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

YesIFit wrote:

They remember. There was a car @ ECR in June that made it through with 0 penalty laps, then went out and turned the fastest lap of the race. At MSRH in September, the same car got hit with 20 laps.

I think that Civic got BS laps are ECR.  According to Kent, they penalized those guys.

They blew there motor at the last MSR race.

Saturday night we were talking and he said they seemed to able to endlessly overheat the motor. 

I told him we can't overheat the L-series in our Z without a huge risk of blowing a head gasket.

Sunday he came and told me apparently they can't endlessly overheat the Honda motor after all.

The Judges remember more than you might think.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Your best defense is to get a residual value after the race. If they thought your car was really cheaty, but it still sucked during the race, you're likely to get a residual that puts you around $500. Once Jay has given your car a value, that's what it's worth for BS. Make sure you take that documentation - but you still need to be prepared to document the whole history of your car, so that it's clear what was on it at each race.

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Stevo wrote:
Trevor57 wrote:

Don't give yourself so much credit.  They won't remember you next time.

RobL wrote:

Don't bring cheaty cars and you won't have that problem.

No, you guys don't get what I'm asking.  I remember them.

Let me try asking this again using small words and short sentences.

Guys bring cheaty cars to the race.  They get BS laps at that race.  They come back to the next race with presumably the same cheat-ass setup.  They don't get any BS laps.  What gives?


In before "Don't take it so seriously, douche."

It's just like in high school.  The cute girls like the other boys better.

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Troy wrote:

I think that Civic got BS laps are ECR.  According to Kent, they penalized those guys.

They blew there motor at the last MSR race.

Saturday night we were talking and he said they seemed to able to endlessly overheat the motor. 

I told him we can't overheat the L-series in our Z without a huge risk of blowing a head gasket.

Sunday he came and told me apparently they can't endlessly overheat the Honda motor after all.

The Judges remember more than you might think.

Nope, they got none @ ECR (I know the guys .. they own a shop up here in DFW. Good guys, do great work.) But yeah, they can't keep that thing cool. If they could ...

Summer's Eve Racing - '09 Yee-Haw; '10 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie, Yee-Haw; '11 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie (Winner, Class A!)
TARP Racing - '11 Yee-Haw, Heaps; '12 Gator-O-Rama (Winner, Class C ... Looking for a Class B Win to Complete the Trifecta!), Heaps; '13 NorDal Hooptie, Gator-O-Rama

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Trevor57 wrote:

It's just like in high school.  The cute girls like the other boys better.

Exactly.  Only they went from couldn't get a date to the homecoming dance to banging the prom queen.

15 (edited by Bender/StickFigureRacing 2010-10-14 06:31 AM)

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

I see Stevo's point, and I agree. In your 1st race: you got 0 bullshit Laps. "Good Boy no Cheatin"
                                               Your second race: Bilstein shocks, new carb. "Bad Boy 30 laps"
                                       
So INMO your third race: If you show up with the same set-up then you should get a 30 lap penalty.
If you asked Jay for a residual value and he came back with a total of $300.00 for your car, did that include your new/old toys? Does Jay know you have the toys? Does he know you have raced twice with them? I don't think Jay cares! You should be the one to man-up and tell Jay when your asking for the residual that these parts are on the car. If Jay gives you a residual and it say's $300.00 too include Bilstein/Carb then that's your new starting point. If there is nothing on the paper that says we have Bilstein shocks and new carb and have Jay's approval then Buck up! you should get 30 laps at your next race. Don't expect the Judges to remember everything you do.

On the thread about Jay claiming the motor from Camaro, Speedy cop made a good point: "It's totally against the spirit of Lemons to bring a cheaty ringer. The point of a series for $500 crapcans is that you aren't forced to compete against guys with deep pockets and tons of build experience."

So no matter what you think...... I personally don't care if you have had your toys on the car for ten years! If you added them and they are not included in the total of $500.00 dollar limit or Jay hasn't added them to the residual then your still cheatin and should get laps.

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Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Stevo wrote:

Exactly.  Only they went from couldn't get a date to the homecoming dance to banging the prom queen.

Ah, yet another thread gets around to this central conflict: Mark didn't get to bang the prom queen.

I think his question is getting obliterated in the process, but this is what I make of it, in classic intarweb/South Park elves/underwear/?/profit fashion

Race 1:
1. Show up with cheaty car;
2. Get penalty laps;
3. Race.

Race 2:
1. Show up with same cheaty car;
2. Get no penalty laps;
3. Race

And the question is why does the same cheaty car not get laps the second time around? Does serving the penalty in the first race absolve those cheaty parts of their cheaty nature for future races?

Just to make clear, I don't personally really care. I'm not one to argue in favor of more litigiousness, as is Stevo; he's the one who walks around in the "Trust me, I'm a lawyer" t-shirt, despite the fact that he's not a lawyer and as a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian probably thinks that litigiousness is probably the single greatest threat to the Republic. He's a conundrum, an enigma, if you will. But we do love him.

But I don't know that the "it's the residual value, stupid" argument holds much water in terms of answering the how/why are the cheaty parts absolved of their cheaty nature part of the question; all that does is change the question to how/why are cheaty parts relieved of their value (by dint of one Lemons race?), not answer the question.

If you can't tell, I was in court this morning. It's hard to say goodbye.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

17 (edited by m610 2010-10-14 11:04 AM)

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

They do remember the cars, probably not all cars, but the one I've been involved with in my first race, the barely noticeable Zoom-Zoom-Boom car, they asked if he had done anything to the car since the last race, the answer was new brake pads, and the car was sent on through.

We entered our own car and as it was an Opel and since Opels apparently have no hope of finishing, much less doing well, and no aftermarket support (No one at Kragan knows what an Opel is, and only the "old guy" at NAPA does.), Jay just asked us how much we spent. We told him about the sway bars and how much that put us over, and were poised and ready to elaborate/defend  (technically, original equipment, in Europe.... technically a replacement part, the mounts were still there, these parts were missing..., we had to fix it...), then popped the headlights to present the baksheesh and got off free.

But we'll see what happens at Buttonwillow.

But I guess the question is, does cheatonium have a half-life? If so, it creates a new build strategy. With all having been forgiven after each inspection, then again and again after a few more races and still more BS laps, you could build up a pretty fast car using "forgiven" parts.

18 (edited by Buzz Killington 2010-10-14 02:09 PM)

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Stevo wrote:

Does the residual value start at $500+(BS Laps x $10)?  For example, 38 penalty laps at an event would result in a residual value of $880, theoretically requiring the shedding of $380 worth of cheatonium to get back to zero penalty laps.

i don't see what the difficulty is here.

your residual value is as the car rolled off the track at the end of the race.  cheaty cars are worth less at the end of the race than at the beginning, just like non-cheaty cars.

residual = (what you spent) - (how much value the race took out of the car)

if you spent $450 on your car, you'd expect that the residual would be lower than that after the race, right?  why would it work differently for a $650 car?

it's entirely possible for a residual to still be over $500 if your car is cheaty, but in that case, sell some stuff or take your laps the next time as well, and every time after until the judges decide it's gotten crappy enough that it's no longer cheaty.

if your car got hit with 10 laps and you bring back the same car and with residual of $450, you shouldn't get laps if you didn't spend more than $50 to get it ready to run again.

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12+-time loser
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Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

m610 wrote:

But I guess the question is, does cheatonium have a half-life? If so, it creates a new build strategy.

Yahtzee.

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Can any of you guys hook me up with the prom queen?

Remember, it's never too early to start embellishing the past.

"so there I was, 90mph, sideways on the brink of death ..."

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

I can if you are okay with sloppy seconds.

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Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Not the prom queen, but I think I was the only freshman male in my high school's history to ever have been invited as a date to Senior Prom. And I know what you're thinking:  No, it wasn't by a relative.

She's probably available. It's been nearly 2 dozen years, but I may be able to work something out for you. My wife may get upset if I start googling women's names in an effort to track her down, though.

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Stevo wrote:
m610 wrote:

But I guess the question is, does cheatonium have a half-life? If so, it creates a new build strategy.

Yahtzee.

If you can't beat 'em join 'em?

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Stevo wrote:

I hesitate to bring this up since I don't want to be known as the whiny bitch to bring this up, but some of us were talking and...

What happens to the wayward, once the subject of much scorn, ridicule and penalty laps by the Lemons Supreme Court, when they return to race again?

Does the residual value start at $500+(BS Laps x $10)?  For example, 38 penalty laps at an event would result in a residual value of $880, theoretically requiring the shedding of $380 worth of cheatonium to get back to zero penalty laps.

Without mentioning any 2 cars by name that finished in the top 3 at Gingerman, we noticed that certain cars have incurred the wrath of the Court in events past only to move through subsequent BS Judgings unscathed.  Have these one-time sinners reformed their ways?

I realize that racing damage/wear/blowups, major baksheesh and completely awesome re-themes do sometimes occur, resulting in the good favor of the Court.

However, it would seem that even in the absence of these events, time and familiarity might lead to a certain acceptance (acquiesence?) from the Court.  Why the zeros?  I ask you, sir, WWCD?  What Would Che Do?  No, he'd line 'em up against the wall in the FIRST instance of cheating, so perhaps that's not the best rhetorical question.  "What Would Mike Helton Do?" No, his past is too green-white-checkered.  "What Would Max Mosley Do?"  Yeah, that's it, and give us the long answer, sado-masochism, Nazi hookers, mountains of blow, etc.

I get the idea,, no cheaty cars!
  I don't want to be a cheater, but I do want to build whatever I can..
IF I take a bone stock 1976 Jaguar XJ-S V12, clean it up to the best of my ability. It's pretty obvious that's ok.
  Tires and brakes are pretty wide open Since I can use cast off Corvette rims and the stock brakes are pretty decent..
  Now IF I show up at race #1 with a couple of ghetto chargers under the hood am I being cheaty or is it such an outlandish idea that they will be so busy laughing they'll forget to give me BS laps?
  IF I get BS laps can I trade extra fuel stops for them?  The car driven nicely will get 8-11 MPG compared to an average of 30-40 MPG for most cars.   In racing conditions I suspect 3 MPG would be expected..  Sice most cars are in the 10 MPG range during racing that means I refuel 3 times to others single refuel..
Add some ghetto chargers and if I made it to refueling I might get say 2 MPG?  so we're Talking about 5 refueling stops to one..
  Thus they could give me  120 laps in a 24 hour race and I would spend all of them in the pits refueling..

Re: BS Inspection Recidivists

Spank wrote:

Not the prom queen, but I think I was the only freshman male in my high school's history to ever have been invited as a date to Senior Prom. And I know what you're thinking:  No, it wasn't by a relative.

Yeah, but that's only 'cuz she heard you were hung like a sophomore. :rofl:

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