• From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Topic: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

'kay, you've been waiting... I shouldn't let the cat outta the bag, BUT... the "racecar"mini that only ran 19 laps might never get out of the sandblast shop, and then THIS showed up:

64 beetle - ex drag bug. Beat, but it's a bug, it looks too good - for a bug. will need to attack it with a hammer or something. or strip the paint that's covering the rust/bondo.
Wide fives, 5-1/2" wide - fake centerlines
drum brakes
IRS conversion
welded/spooled diff.
~cheap enough not to be cheating more or less than $100 after adding the engine and subtracting some sales items (MSD, extra headlamps and a few Drag parts I don't have a use for)

...and now the pudding:
an engine came to me off a garbage-hauling service "Git-R-Done", ya' know, the p/u truck with plywood sides and some guys w/prison tats...
They live across the street and asked if I knew anything 'bout "Volvo aircooled motors"
I had to look.
$200 later it's in my garage.
1600DP, NEW hardware on everything.
FI, but it has a pontiac sunfire/chevy cavalier system grafted on.
Turbo hanging off the collector T3/04 it looks like. Used.
almost proper plumbing - the outflow from said turbo was pretty low into the oil pan, dunno , if it would'a backed up, bad for turbo...
to inspect - took (stock) exhaust off and inspected - no soot in ports! New Brazilian engine?
Empi extended sump.
Screen-type external oil filter, cobble plumbed in a round-about way.

So...
The most common comment seems to be "let us know how that works out"
The most common advice is split between "buy the disk brake conversion" and Do NOT turbo.
the head-shaking is at the turbo, the pancake in a bug and the weird FI setup.

Plans include many mods (ghetto type of course) to mimic Baja500 cars - more oil, added in a surge-tank, oil cooler(s), external filter, make sure the fan shroud is 110%.

Questions:
The Sunfire/Cavalier computer - ANY ideas?
I have downloaded the wiring diagram.
Can it be flashed?
Can you fake the cam-position sensor by placing triggers on the pulley?
Will sequential injection work in a pancake V-dub? Turbo'd?
my alternate is a $15 DGV got from BugoRama

Turbo - internal wastegate. more or less, I shouldn't turbo an aircoolie. but if I did:
How do you set it to 3 or 4 psi?
How do you know what it's at w/o firing an engine?

Brakes:
Porterfield says I shouldn't have problems with R-4DS SHOES. They make them.
anybody have experience outside-of-Stock shoes? (I know stock would need adjusting every hour)

Chassis:
How do you get Caster on a link-pin V-dub?

Thanks for input!
~crazy Mike~

  • Registered: 2009-09-22
  • Posts: 367

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

The only problem I see here is that you're talking about limiting the boost.

Not sure about the pontiac computer - you should be able to do something using a hall effect or vr sensor - we have a ford edis system with a vr and toothed wheel on the Karmann Ghia. You'd have to look at what signal that input is expecting. If you can find the right sensor you could probably cobble something up on the flywheel or pulley.

Brakes - probably a good idea. At least go front disk - the problem with drums is that the shoes wear fast enough that you'll lose pedal during a stint. Until we went to rear disks, we only had rear brakes for the first 45 minutes of the day. Having rear brakes in a rear engined car is nice - you can actually use them if they are there.

Castor? If it's like the ball joint cars you shim the beam to change the angle of the entire thing.

Definitely worry about cooling - make sure that all the tin is present, seal any gaps in the seams (we use tar backed metal tape) and make sure that you are getting all the air you can over the heads and jugs.

Head Hoopy Frood
www.mostlyharmlessracing.com
  • From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

Zach - thanks!
didn't mention:
- I've repaired other folks bugs, but the only VW exp I've got is Waterboxer and '78 rabbit (both gas a diesel)
- the computer came with the loom and 99% of the sensors - they had one aimed at the balance slugs on the pre-fan. but the slugs are odd in number and not perfectly spaced.
- Castor - yah, I thought so - longer bolts and shim material that will form around the tube, right?
- cooling, was wondering if that if I'm adding external oil coolers, should I get the stock one out of the incoming-to-LH bank-airflow?
- limiting boost - yeah, per Eyesore - I have no idea what's inside the engine - it may be Brazil Stock, it may be mildly modified - the heads are bone-stock as was the flywheel (though it was 8-doweled) and all external things except the Empi sump... so I figure baby-boost to widen the powerband and give ~10% more while keep it as reliable as it's going to be.
- Brakes. It's only $$. I'm like Spank, a one-man op with drivers. B-willow isn't like Sears, but is more braking than T-hill. I think I can get away with comp shoes for one go 'round then upgrade, even if we're off track to adjust/cool etc regularly. Unless the drivers can bring some upgrade $$ to the pool... I'd like to keep the wide-five look just because, and that adds $200 to the cost, plus rotors are proprietary.
- more on brakes: really? disc conversion on rear was necc? Damn. who's setup did you go with? did you try comp shoes in back b4 the switch?

...you're a ghia - but airflow out the back - how to get hot flow out of the cyls - do you use scoops/deflectors/diffusers on the underside of the car ahead of the engine? (airdam ahead of the cyls, diffuser under main of each side to educt air)

  • From: Toronto, Ontario
  • Registered: 2009-05-03
  • Posts: 1,114

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

If you use shoes, make sure the linings are rivetted. Bonded linings can outgas when they're really hot and either delaminate or lubricate the swept area. Not good. I tried this on a '71 Demon, but eventually switched to discs....but a Bug is pretty light so it might work.

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....
  • Registered: 2009-09-22
  • Posts: 367

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

crazymike wrote:

- Castor - yah, I thought so - longer bolts and shim material that will form around the tube, right?

Yep. Shim the bottom out. We used a piece of 2 inch or 2.5 inch conduit cut in half and notched to fit.

crazymike wrote:

- cooling, was wondering if that if I'm adding external oil coolers, should I get the stock one out of the incoming-to-LH bank-airflow?

We haven't - with the tin fitted and sealed we see head temps around 350 - 375 with the sensor on the #3 plug

crazymike wrote:

- more on brakes: really? disc conversion on rear was necc? Damn. who's setup did you go with? did you try comp shoes in back b4 the switch?

We didn't try good shoes in the back - choices were limited, and the conversion is relatively cheap if you're willing to lose the parking brake

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=714

Bonus is that it means we use the same caliper and pads on all four corners - makes carting spares around easier. Although we have different compounds front and rear now.

We're not cheap when it comes to safety.

Speaking of - You'll probably want to carry spare wheel bearings, or put in new ones every race. We've found that if you're driving hard they don't last very long - of course our car pulls over 1g cornering on star specs. I suspect that it was never designed to do that.

crazymike wrote:

...you're a ghia - but airflow out the back - how to get hot flow out of the cyls - do you use scoops/deflectors/diffusers on the underside of the car ahead of the engine? (airdam ahead of the cyls, diffuser under main of each side to educt air)

If you have the factory sled tins in place it creates a low pressure area behind the engine that actually helps pull the air out. Also try to fabricate some "industrial tins" if you don't have heater boxes and the tin that attaches to them. Added those got us another 25 degrees cooler.

Head Hoopy Frood
www.mostlyharmlessracing.com
  • JThw8
  • JThw8
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  • From: Mullica Hill, NJ
  • Registered: 2009-06-10
  • Posts: 1,781

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

Ive raced formula Vees with the wide 5 drums and good quality (competition) brake shoes.  But a vee is much less weight and power than you are talking about.  I'd convert.

There's enough guys in Lemons alone killing 944s on a regular basis that you should be able to get that setup and have more brake than you will ever need.

The rears are a bolt on, you can even fab/buy an adapter to keep the parking brake if you like.  The fronts require a little modification to have the hubs bored out for the VW spindle and bearings but its a pretty well documented thing.

Or as mentioned you can go with Ghia parts.  Ghia disks on the front 914 stuff will fit the rear and have the same caliper as the ghia so you could do that if you have access to any of those cars.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

JThw8's Website

  • From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

I'm on 215/55-15 star spec's - will look at W/B issue - was planning on Synth grease like we use in the mini's (which burn grease due to high brake temps) and carry spares.

~not certain of how the rear disc would fare - this is a Frankenstein car - it has an unknown IRS grafted onto a '64 chassis, uses 510 halfshafts into a 912 4speed (914. by number) - and as noted wide-fives - first is front brake upgrade anyhow.

Manpower and cash getting the wide-fives to some other pattern being the immediate problem - the build-out has its other $$ safety priorities
...that being said - we'll race on a what-we-can for the first go-round, then upgrade spendy brakes and wheels as we can.

944's in Pick-n-pull, too, though only one 914 I know of near... I teach at a machine shop so might be able to do the bore-thing myself. Will look into it, thanks!

airflow is different - pancake in a bug, open engine compartment with engine cover (baja chop-job sort of w/o removing hood and fenders) I think I'll do the industrial sled thing. By this I think you mean keep the lower tins everyone in the buggy biz removes?
~headers, no heater boxes~

  • From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

Evil Genius moved it into the shop! wooHOO!
John says Pan cars need floor cross-bracing, not unlike fiberglass cars, so that's going in.
Talking two door bars, but not nascar.
No "X" between rear braces, just a main-hoop diagonal and seatbelt bar
Add dash cross-bar - may be under column, maybe over.
add top-of-shock rear cross-bar (In case I add offroad shocks sometime.
add drivers' side wheel intrusion bar, maybe pass side to add rigidity to front beam.
Auction famous name autograph I'll need to forge to pay for this.

9 Reply by crazymike (edited by crazymike 2010-10-17 08:03 PM)

  • From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

New find - Baja in PnP...
It had doubled rear springplates - as in one on each side of the arm/hub ear and a spacer on the torsion bar end.
-- Seems type 3 and 69-70 something had them... Is this a good/necessary thing?

~it also had a quick-steer and braided lines - it was raining and I didn't have the oomph left to snag the quick-steer but I got the lines, 15x8 wide 5's for the rear and adapters for the future 4 lug disk set for the front

Given the nature of Baja's and that this one had some good mods, what are the chances of finding better rate torsion bars in it, and how can I tell from stock?

  • From: sacramento ca
  • Registered: 2009-11-25
  • Posts: 266

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

type 3s had stiffer bars, would have to search thesamba for a part number. i didnt see the baja has a steeering quickener, im intrested in that

mike im worried about Camber on the front not caster

  • From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Re: B-willow Team -ing w/bad ideas build-out... Beetle Bomb

I think the link pins can be shimmed for camber - the Bugformance guys say the shims are more $$ than a new pin kit with shims. I don't know how much we can get though one of the FV sites says to get 2 degrees we'll need an "offset bushing kit" that I see lised at $85.
If it isn't used the suspension binds - I imagine from the upper and lower pins not being in-line/plane.

At some point I might just swap someone the link pin for a ball front. If the price is right.

I'd love to say I'm grabbing the quick-steer on Tuesday, but I won't be able to get back to it 'til Thurs. If you go Bring 14mm pair, wire cutter and a pickle fork. (wire cutter for safety wire) I was also eying a dual master in one of the superbeetles, cheaper than new, but it's brakes so I might go new...

Bars: Interesting note -If the rear has been mod'd to type 3 - or is it a '69/'70 std beetle. Would need to remove one and measure diameter I suppose
Was kinda wondering what might the front be, too.
It had a set of Alloy tie-rods, but I don't see that as a benefit.

Did you see it had toggle brakes?
~it also had upside-down front shocks - that weren't designed to be upside down. And Adjustable "E's" on the back, I probably should have grabbed those, too but they didn't look great. Love that fuel system - think I might go that way sometime. Easy to cover.