• OMGuar
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Topic: who do we ask for permission or approval?

Earlier I listed a proposed  budget.   Several seemed to have issues with the selection of items by one of the drivers on my team. He's been following along and said if it's that big a deal we'll do whatever is approved...
  So who's the person to ask and who's just blowing off steam? 
Yes I know it's Jay's final call but who are the BS judges?  Do they give preapproval or do we simply show up and get what we get? 
  For example 
  Instead of the 34 year old brakes we want to use wilwoods.. They are cheaper and lighter than the originals.  Read the rules and it seems like we should be allowed them but maybe that's not how things really work? 
  Tires and wheels seem to be an open area too but again I'm getting a lot of grief.. is there an unwritten rule?  This is OK but that isn't?

  • Mulry
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

For most cars (the 8-wheeled Tyrell and that type of outlandishness being the exception), the BS judges don't make a pre-ruling.

Brakes, tires, and wheels are all outside the $500 budget. Spend all you want on them and you won't get hammered at BS judging.

However, if/when you spend a lot on things that are outside the budget, it does make the judges suspicious of what you might have also spent a lot of money on that is within the budget. It is up to your discretion (or lack thereof) to act accordingly. It might prove useful to attend an afternoon of Lemons tech/judging (typically on the day before the start of the race; also typically free to attend that day) to see how this all works in practice prior to your first event.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.
  • BoB
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

The Bs Judges are typicall Judge Phil and someone else.  For BS the rules are there and like Mulry said brakes and wheels and saftey are  outside the budget. Performance mods aren't (except brakes and wheels) theme typically isn't counted towards budget unless it would give you a performance mod.

Some of your other plans you probably will want to check with Jay if you haven't.  THink gas you can't buy typically out of local gas pumps, and things like that, while not a cheaty or budget thing you might want to verify just to be safe.

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  • OMGuar
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

BoB wrote:

The Bs Judges are typicall Judge Phil and someone else.  For BS the rules are there and like Mulry said brakes and wheels and saftey are  outside the budget. Performance mods aren't (except brakes and wheels) theme typically isn't counted towards budget unless it would give you a performance mod.

Some of your other plans you probably will want to check with Jay if you haven't.  THink gas you can't buy typically out of local gas pumps, and things like that, while not a cheaty or budget thing you might want to verify just to be safe.

Could you please clarify that? 
Do you mean we're required to use track gas?
  I know E85 is allowed I've seen it in the past but we won't be using that if the car stands any chance at all of winning..   Too much of a pit stop penalty..  Besides that's a massive amount of weight to haul 500 miles..

  • OMGuar
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

BoB wrote:

The Bs Judges are typicall Judge Phil and someone else.  For BS the rules are there and like Mulry said brakes and wheels and saftey are  outside the budget. Performance mods aren't (except brakes and wheels) theme typically isn't counted towards budget unless it would give you a performance mod.

Some of your other plans you probably will want to check with Jay if you haven't.  THink gas you can't buy typically out of local gas pumps, and things like that, while not a cheaty or budget thing you might want to verify just to be safe.

OK so I got the Jaguar (and 2 others) free  But as I understand the rules free even if I can prove it, doesn't mean it has no value..
So how much is a 34 year old XJ-S V12 worth and is there any money left over for go faster stuff?
    Second,  If I make stuff even if it seems high tech as I understand the rules I only need to account for the cost of the mateials.. is that correct?    So my Carbon fibre stuff as long as it comes in under the remains of the $500 No BS laps are assigned? 
   Third, and most important of all.. how much time is spent in the pits by the successful teams? Let's use a 24 hour race as a standard..
    is slightly over 30 minutes total about correct? 
  IF I could figure out how many laps the winners completed and their average lap times I could do the calculations myself.   But I've not been able to figure out how to get that information..

  • BoB
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

OMGuar wrote:
BoB wrote:

The Bs Judges are typicall Judge Phil and someone else.  For BS the rules are there and like Mulry said brakes and wheels and saftey are  outside the budget. Performance mods aren't (except brakes and wheels) theme typically isn't counted towards budget unless it would give you a performance mod.

Some of your other plans you probably will want to check with Jay if you haven't.  THink gas you can't buy typically out of local gas pumps, and things like that, while not a cheaty or budget thing you might want to verify just to be safe.

Could you please clarify that? 
Do you mean we're required to use track gas?
  I know E85 is allowed I've seen it in the past but we won't be using that if the car stands any chance at all of winning..   Too much of a pit stop penalty..  Besides that's a massive amount of weight to haul 500 miles..

There are no rules I'm aware of that you need to use, but if you are using something more exotic than what you would find normally around the track you might want to make sure it is fine in case the track doesn't allow it for some reason. I just figure its better to take a couple minutes to email jay and nick to have it verified that it is ok, than to show up and have someone at the track say you can't run it the day of the race.

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  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

The rules are very clear.

Also, any Jaguar will be judged less harshly than an E30... but bring all your receipts.

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  • From: Mini-so-ta
  • Registered: 2010-09-08
  • Posts: 1,181

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

OMGuar,

I've now read several threads of yours on this Jag build.  I think it's a good Lemons platform, and you clearly have the knowledge and dedication to make it happen.  So, get it built and go racing already.  Your first race will not be perfect; you will make mistakes.  Whether you make them with a $20k investment, a $10k investment, or a $5k investment, things will go wrong and you will learn what you should and shouldn't have done.  Attempt to improve, go to next race, screw up some more, repeat until ultimate victory or ultimate failure occurs.

BS inspection is subjective, not objective.  You show up, and if the court decides you're a stinkin cheater, you get laps.  If not, no laps.  It wouldn't hurt to bring them a few cans of Surly, just in case.  Don't argue with the judges, you won't win.  You know you've already taken a good step down the "no laps" path by picking an XJS.  Bring all of your documentation; if you're unlucky, they might actually look at it.  If you're lucky, they might actually believe it.

Former chief proprietor and lead bad idea generator of Binford "More Power" Racing, 2010-2013: humbly self-proclaimed the best Chevy Beretta in Lemons history.
  • From: Houston (Spring) Texas
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

OMGuar,
All of this has been posted before. Quite often i read your posts telling people to read what you have already written. Maybe it is time for you to follow your own advice:

Search the forum; most questions have been answered.
I already suggested contacting nick @ 24hoursoflemons for obscure technical questions (ie alternate fuels, just because it was used at track X on day Y doesn't mean it can be used again)

Judge Phil just explained the BS rules for your car: you will be OK as long as you bring paperwork and a Jag. If you bring a more modern sports car, no amount of documentation will save your ass from penalty laps.

People have told you how it is, and you argue to get your own way. The rules say "No whining". This is the most basic rule. All others are based around this. I highly suggest to all guys thinking of starting a team: go race with someone else first to learn how it is done right. In your case, I suggest spectating, then racing with someone else, then come back here. You will be ready for your own car by then.

You even said "I know this is Jay's sandbox and his rules..." but you don't like the rules. Maybe you should assess your expectations of Lemons.

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
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Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
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  • Serj
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

don't try to argue the BS process. follow the rules to pass tech, follow the spirit of this race for BS; that means, in plain english, that people are doing the most fun thing they can with what little they have. your talk of getting free carbon fiber and fabbing up your own parts may be awesome and cheap in it's own right, but some of us probably may not feel that's within the spirit of the event. Using vacuum pump pressure from the intake manifold to animate a skull welded to your hood as part of your theme is awesome and within the spirit of the race here. being a track lawyer about every rule in the book and showing up with your entire car swathed in hand-made carbon fiber body panels, just isn't. you want an option more in the spirit of the race? replace body panels with chicken wire and paper mache. serious.

11 Reply by EriktheAwful (edited by EriktheAwful 2010-11-18 07:23 PM)

  • From: Choctaw, Oklahoma
  • Registered: 2009-11-12
  • Posts: 2,145

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

You're asking for a cut-and-dry answer to a fuzzy question. If you get Lemons it's a no-brainer. If you're trying to win it's very frustrating.

Brakes are on the "spend as much as you want" list, but you have to keep in mind that seeing expensive brakes on a car puts the Judges on the prowl for cheaty bits. If you put Wilwoods on a complete $#!+box then you're golden. If you put Wilwoods on a car and try to hide a Pratt & Miller SBC under the hood you're gonna get caught.

Typically Jags don't have much to prove in the paperwork department, but since you're a Jaghead you can expect to get sweated a bit because you know all the ways to cheat (i.e. 100 different ways to get 5 more hp out of it). I'm a rotary freak with lots of Nissan experience who brought a Jag - Judge Phil laughed at me. I wasn't on his radar and showed up with a stupid car choice. I honestly didn't know if our car build was under $500, and I didn't care. I think in the Judge's eyes, our XJ6 showed up with a value of $0, even though we paid $325 for it.

If all your experience was in Jags and you showed up with a $700 Mazda rotary pickup you'd probably be golden.

  • OMGuar
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

Serj wrote:

don't try to argue the BS process. follow the rules to pass tech, follow the spirit of this race for BS; that means, in plain english, that people are doing the most fun thing they can with what little they have. your talk of getting free carbon fiber and fabbing up your own parts may be awesome and cheap in it's own right, but some of us probably may not feel that's within the spirit of the event. Using vacuum pump pressure from the intake manifold to animate a skull welded to your hood as part of your theme is awesome and within the spirit of the race here. being a track lawyer about every rule in the book and showing up with your entire car swathed in hand-made carbon fiber body panels, just isn't. you want an option more in the spirit of the race? replace body panels with chicken wire and paper mache. serious.

OK I understand fun!   That's the reason to do this..
  cause we sure ain't gonna get rich or famous..
  My idea of fun is to do something difficult well.
  I'm not into slapstick or Chicken suits..  I understand the need for a great sense of humor  but I don't believe all humor has to be slap stick..
I like really dry, clever, witty,  intelligent humor.   
  I've read and reread the rules.. I READ WHAT PHIL WROTE. Phil wrote it's in the rules.. I don't read where carbon fibre is outlawed..
    I started this out asking about unwritten rules.. Yet right above you write "some of us may not feel it's in the spirit of the rules".
  It's not important that I use a Carbon fibre hood or trunklid etc.. who cares.. I can leave the parts off completely and they will weigh nothing..
  I might like the looks of them on but I can take them off if the rules require it..
  I can also make some parts in the pits to show people how easy it is to do.. Heck we have a weekend, that's enough time to make somebody a bonnet (limey for hood)  Well, if it's not windy or rainy wink=)

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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

EriktheAwful wrote:

You're asking for a cut-and-dry answer to a fuzzy question. If you get Lemons it's a no-brainer. If you're trying to win it's very frustrating.

Brakes are on the "spend as much as you want" list, but you have to keep in mind that seeing expensive brakes on a car puts the Judges on the prowl for cheaty bits. If you put Wilwoods on a complete $#!+box then you're golden. If you put Wilwoods on a car and try to hide a Pratt & Miller SBC under the hood you're gonna get caught.

Typically Jags don't have much to prove in the paperwork department, but since you're a Jaghead you can expect to get sweated a bit because you know all the ways to cheat (i.e. 100 different ways to get 5 more hp out of it). I'm a rotary freak with lots of Nissan experience who brought a Jag - Judge Phil laughed at me. I wasn't on his radar and showed up with a stupid car choice. I honestly didn't know if our car build was under $500, and I didn't care. I think in the Judge's eyes, our XJ6 showed up with a value of $0, even though we paid $325 for it.

If all your experience was in Jags and you showed up with a $700 Mazda rotary pickup you'd probably be golden.

Erik
  That's a good point.  MY knowledge makes me suspect.  It's reasonable too.. Because I know I could show up with 600 horsepower under the hood and nobody could point out where it's coming from.  It would look bone stock!
  However it's lap times  would quickly show up on the track.   Then I'd expect a black flag and my butt kicked off the track..
As it should be!  A really fast car in this crowd would be dangerous as well as stupid..
I'm sure I'm not the only one though.. I'm sure some of the more successful teams have that sort of people.. either working for them or access to them..
  I don't expect to be really fast.. and I sure don't believe there is a chance at all of "winning"
I get that it doesn't matter what I think..  I think I've got a as you say "shit box" performance wise, however it's what do the judges think that matters.   
  Do you know what the slowest  car on the Top Gear race track is?  Yep a 40 year old Aston Martin DR5
They showed a new Honda beating both a 4.2 XK-E and a Aston Martin in a drag race.. the Honda has more top speed and faster lap times.  In fact an uprated Jaguar XK-E with wide tires and wheels, improved brakes, and suspension etc..  was slower than a Ford Escort around their test track! (both driven by Stig)
  The V12 is 34 years old.  It's not a winner if I draped it in carbon fibre, put on wide wheels, big brakes  and plated the door handles in Gold!
OH by the way
Our cars will have fairly similar weights, same suspension etc.. and that 4.2 litre six  engine wieghs  20 pounds less than the 5.3 litre V12 does.   So if you wanted you could swap that 6 for a V12.  (same compartment size)

  • From: Mentor, OH
  • Registered: 2010-02-22
  • Posts: 207

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

I see where you are coming from but you are really over analyzing and over thinking all of this.  I am not trying to come down on you but you really need to take a step back, this isn't spec miata, Concourse of anything, or anything else that has a reputation that precedes its overall intent.  Take a car, shittier the better, make it run, move, steer, and stop with only inputs from the driver and you are good to go.  Yes we are "racing" (term used loosely) but for me it is about the people.  I can't really tell you off the top of my head who drives what or who is on which team but I can tell you who is cool to talk to at the track, who would be willing to lend a hand or a beer, or who I would help out at the track in a heartbeat. 

Just keep in mind we would all love to "spruce up" our Lemon's car but really at the end of the day all that turd polishing is only gonna get you more scrutiny from fellow forum members and worse the race organizers and judges. 

Also, with all of these topics you have started you have really put a bullseye on your back, unintentionally I am sure but you are probably in for a very thorough once/twice over at BS Inspection.  If you are going to upgrade certain parts of your car with self fabricated items just document everything and be prepared (read: documentation) and deal with it at BS inspection.  From experience I can tell you the truth/documentation isn't always enough either. If the judges feel you deserve laps, well, you are gonna get them. At least wear them proud and learn for next time.

Sorry, got carried away and I am all jacked up on Mountain Dew.

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  • From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

quote/ "OK I understand fun!   That's the reason to do this..
  cause we sure ain't gonna get rich or famous..
  My idea of fun is to do something difficult well.
  I'm not into slapstick or Chicken suits..  I understand the need for a great sense of humor  but I don't believe all humor has to be slap stick..
I like really dry, clever, witty,  intelligent humor.  "

Fun, yes.
But Then you must also work on the theme - a race car is a race car and should be put in a race series, this is Lemons, so your car needs be a Lemon or themed, or ridiculed and probed and penalized as "cheater" whether it's cheater or not...

A Stock Jag, as you've pointed out, is a lemon. XKE's can't last 20 minutes on track w/stock brakes. Heavy and hard on tires, the lot of them.
Add Great brakes and Better tires, gusset the suspension mountings and arms, reduce the weight and even a Mk2 becomes a bit of a race car.

A Mk2 can go with a cheesy "Grey Poupon" them easy
Any Jaguar with a team of *Ahem*" Jaguars (whether OEM female or not) is a great theme.
Redo the tail of yours with the coffin - put a hearse body on the back and go with the Harold and Maude theme and go for it with Wilwood and unobtainium wheels!

But...
Less costuming and a bit of cheese on the bodywork - when you show up at tech with a hi-tech undersides on the beastie -- expect to be Scrutinized by one and all.
Example: A certain v-8 volvo was made/offered up to dyno to verify (and possibly remove)the lap penalty. only it had Stock 302 power - and then it was put to vote in the am of the race. guess what - stock 302 power and all, the 100% consensus was the penalty laps stuck. It  would have won w/o them...
~note - their hi tech is mostly in the instrumentation and communication - and a helluva good suspension setup guy, and a good team strategy... As in they aren't cheating, really.

I got 17-1/2 penalty laps for my mini because I had SCCA stickers in the rear windows (which windows came out of the trash of a genuine scca racers shop), it had FOUR dzus fasteners on it and it looked like a tired race car. It did not matter that it had stock mini brakes and a 100% bonafide Pick-n-pull engine.
After bribes it got down to 10 lap penalty.
and then it lasted 19 actual, 9 laps recorded.
~ the theme was as best could be made in one week, the team was MIA at tech and the theme tshirts didn't come 'til sat, so effectively it had NO THEME.


So - if you wanna have fun, come with whatever you want to build - there is a place for you somewhere on track and in the pits.

And above all recall this one rule (if you get penalty laps or treatment you aren't happy with):
2.4: Whiner Eligibility. Whiners are not eligible to compete. If you believe that you might be a whiner, please check with a domestic partner, guardian, or health-care professional before getting the rest of your team kicked the hell out of the race.

ciao and you are welcome to pit near us, we love the V-12 sounds...

  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

crazymike wrote:

qA certain v-8 volvo was made/offered up to dyno to verify (and possibly remove)the lap penalty. only it had Stock 302 power - and then it was put to vote in the am of the race. guess what - stock 302 power and all, the 100% consensus was the penalty laps stuck.

Actually, the V8olvo would not have won with zero BS laps, because it lost oil pressure late in the race and had to pit. Everything, and I mean everything, has to go right to take the overall win at a Lemons race.

Murilee Martin aka Judge Phil on Facebook
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  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

Anyway, there's only one formula if you really care about an overall Lemons win: (reliable car that's quicker than 60% of the competition) + (team stacked with robot-consistent pro-quality drivers) + (luck) = win. The V8olvo is a great example of this formula; when the team switched from (mostly) slow drivers to some of the top Spec Miata drivers on the west coast, the car went from mid-pack to dominant.

If you really want to take the overall win— though God knows why you would, since an IOE trophy is so much more bragging-rights-worthy— you should watch what Eyesore or Red Rocket Ratnest Revival do: leave nothing to chance, make no mistakes, don't take chances on the track.

If you want the IOE, just ask yourself while car shopping: What would Speedycop do?

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  • OMGuar
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Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

crazymike wrote:

quote/ "OK I understand fun!   That's the reason to do this..
  cause we sure ain't gonna get rich or famous..
  My idea of fun is to do something difficult well.
  I'm not into slapstick or Chicken suits..  I understand the need for a great sense of humor  but I don't believe all humor has to be slap stick..
I like really dry, clever, witty,  intelligent humor.  "

Fun, yes.
But Then you must also work on the theme - a race car is a race car and should be put in a race series, this is Lemons, so your car needs be a Lemon or themed, or ridiculed and probed and penalized as "cheater" whether it's cheater or not...

A Stock Jag, as you've pointed out, is a lemon. XKE's can't last 20 minutes on track w/stock brakes. Heavy and hard on tires, the lot of them.
Add Great brakes and Better tires, gusset the suspension mountings and arms, reduce the weight and even a Mk2 becomes a bit of a race car.

A Mk2 can go with a cheesy "Grey Poupon" them easy
Any Jaguar with a team of *Ahem*" Jaguars (whether OEM female or not) is a great theme.
Redo the tail of yours with the coffin - put a hearse body on the back and go with the Harold and Maude theme and go for it with Wilwood and unobtainium wheels!

But...
Less costuming and a bit of cheese on the bodywork - when you show up at tech with a hi-tech undersides on the beastie -- expect to be Scrutinized by one and all.
Example: A certain v-8 volvo was made/offered up to dyno to verify (and possibly remove)the lap penalty. only it had Stock 302 power - and then it was put to vote in the am of the race. guess what - stock 302 power and all, the 100% consensus was the penalty laps stuck. It  would have won w/o them...
~note - their hi tech is mostly in the instrumentation and communication - and a helluva good suspension setup guy, and a good team strategy... As in they aren't cheating, really.

I got 17-1/2 penalty laps for my mini because I had SCCA stickers in the rear windows (which windows came out of the trash of a genuine scca racers shop), it had FOUR dzus fasteners on it and it looked like a tired race car. It did not matter that it had stock mini brakes and a 100% bonafide Pick-n-pull engine.
After bribes it got down to 10 lap penalty.
and then it lasted 19 actual, 9 laps recorded.
~ the theme was as best could be made in one week, the team was MIA at tech and the theme tshirts didn't come 'til sat, so effectively it had NO THEME.


So - if you wanna have fun, come with whatever you want to build - there is a place for you somewhere on track and in the pits.

And above all recall this one rule (if you get penalty laps or treatment you aren't happy with):
2.4: Whiner Eligibility. Whiners are not eligible to compete. If you believe that you might be a whiner, please check with a domestic partner, guardian, or health-care professional before getting the rest of your team kicked the hell out of the race.

ciao and you are welcome to pit near us, we love the V-12 sounds...

You make good points all  (nice tone too by the way)
  I'm looking at the Jags that I've seen race so far and they aren't silly or guady.. I'd rather do something tasteful.  I'm only semi Kidding about the possibility of being Knighted by the Queen Yeh, I know but we can all have our fantisy can't we? 
I also listened to what Phil said about the suitablity of the Jag as compared to a more modern car (infinity?)
   I' m planning on getting it as light as possible.   Stock it weighs nearly 4000pounds.. It would be nice to get it somewhere near 2500Pounds  but I don't know if it's possible.  Doesn't seem to be any penalty laps in volved with light weight.
  Tires and wheel are open so we'll use whatever we wind up with.  again no penaltylaps..
   I'll cut the springs to lower the car downand I think that's about it.. check and clean the suspension..  remove the rubber isolators and weld  both the front and rear suspension systems solid.  (The suspension will still work properly, however Jaguar mounts both front and rear suspensions on subframes which arre mounted on rubber to isolate the harshness of the ride..
I believe removing of rubber falls under the get it lighter, can't see where it would warrant any penalty laps..
You got 17.5 penalty laps for decals in the windows and 4 dzus fasteners?  See that's the sort of thing I want to avoid.. I've got bins full of that sort of what I call trim stuff.  Instead of a lock on the gas cap door I'd swap out a dzus or flip toggle..
Now that I know it's likely to get penalty laps I won't..
So thanks for the heads up!
     I like the idea of carbon fibre so I'll make a hood and trunklid out of them except I'll  simply take them off for tech and the race and put them back on after the event..
I'm looking to show how  easy carbon fibre is to do so maybe if you're near me we can make a mold and a part for you? 
You know the silly part of all of this?  I could show up with  600 horsepower engine under the bonnet and there wouldn't be one thing on it that wouldn't look stone stock. It would sit there and Idle nice, no lumpy camshaft to give it away The "computer"* would be the original. Fuel injection would look bone stock In fact all of that stuff could be swapped with any properly running similar year parts.. 
Doesn't matter. First  if the car was that fast they'd quickly black flag me and kick the car off the track.. (as they should)  second that V12 is a thristy beast.. about 4 MPG on the race track. could never over come  the extra pit stops for fuel..
* it's not really a computer.. not one IC in it nor any feedback data. In fact there is no data at all other than RC networks
If I know that much about old Jaguars I'm sure that there are teams with similar or evn better knowledge about their BMW or Honda. etc..

  • OMGuar
  • Ripened Lemon
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  • Posts: 320

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

Judge Phil wrote:

Anyway, there's only one formula if you really care about an overall Lemons win: (reliable car that's quicker than 60% of the competition) + (team stacked with robot-consistent pro-quality drivers) + (luck) = win. The V8olvo is a great example of this formula; when the team switched from (mostly) slow drivers to some of the top Spec Miata drivers on the west coast, the car went from mid-pack to dominant.

If you really want to take the overall win— though God knows why you would, since an IOE trophy is so much more bragging-rights-worthy— you should watch what Eyesore or Red Rocket Ratnest Revival do: leave nothing to chance, make no mistakes, don't take chances on the track.

If you want the IOE, just ask yourself while car shopping: What would Speedycop do?

Phil
I don't want to win!  Honest! that's not why I'm doing this.
IT's  just for fun!  it seems like a fun thing to do..
  Sure,  I want to do well..  A win to me would be running the full time without a breakdown..
My goal is the DLBF award  (dead last but finished) 
Besides I'm an old guy well past my prime, so are all of us..
Cripes, I know we don't have the real potential..
So I'll live by the,   "If it don't go chrome it plan"..  another words make it pretty..
  If It wouldn't pizz people off I'd go for the record number of penalty laps..  Or just enter Nolo Contendre.  whatever it takes to show people that we aren't taking this too seriously..

  • OMGuar
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  • Posts: 320

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

porkchops22 wrote:

I see where you are coming from but you are really over analyzing and over thinking all of this.  I am not trying to come down on you but you really need to take a step back, this isn't spec miata, Concourse of anything, or anything else that has a reputation that precedes its overall intent.  Take a car, shittier the better, make it run, move, steer, and stop with only inputs from the driver and you are good to go.  Yes we are "racing" (term used loosely) but for me it is about the people.  I can't really tell you off the top of my head who drives what or who is on which team but I can tell you who is cool to talk to at the track, who would be willing to lend a hand or a beer, or who I would help out at the track in a heartbeat. 

Just keep in mind we would all love to "spruce up" our Lemon's car but really at the end of the day all that turd polishing is only gonna get you more scrutiny from fellow forum members and worse the race organizers and judges. 

Also, with all of these topics you have started you have really put a bullseye on your back, unintentionally I am sure but you are probably in for a very thorough once/twice over at BS Inspection.  If you are going to upgrade certain parts of your car with self fabricated items just document everything and be prepared (read: documentation) and deal with it at BS inspection.  From experience I can tell you the truth/documentation isn't always enough either. If the judges feel you deserve laps, well, you are gonna get them. At least wear them proud and learn for next time.

Sorry, got carried away and I am all jacked up on Mountain Dew.

Would you do me one favor please?
  Would you please believe me when I say I don't care one bit about a win?   
I'm 62, well past my prime. In fact  we're all old farts..
so we know  a win isn't in the cards Plus we picked the wrong car..
  Now I look at some of the cars running Lemons and they are nicely turned out..  that's what I want to do..
  Sure there is no advantage to having a nicely turned out car, But it's not wrong either..
Let me give  a  simple example
  Running without a hood or trunklid is OK..
   I'd like to make a nice light carbon fibre hood and trunklid ( let's say the hood weighs 25 pounds and the trunklid 12) while that's light it's not as light as running without those.   
So should I get penalty laps for carbon fibre?  (if the answer is yes, that's OK I'll take them off before tech and leave them off during the race..) They'll look good going home though

21 Reply by BoB

  • BoB
  • BoB
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Elmhurst, IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 4,206

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

I know you are saying you aren't doing it to win but when people see the big expensive wheels and custom made carbon fiber parts that will tell them you are expecting to win.

Building stuff is fine, it is encouraged but material has to be taken into account for what you build.  So even if you have the materials on hand you have to either add what you originally paid for with proof(reciepts) or assign it fair market value for what it costs for the material with proof(online quotes or some price listings from a supplier or something like that).  Free is one of those things that most people have a hard time believing and the judges have heard lots of crazy stories and have been lied to so many times they believe no one.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
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22 Reply by Sir Thomas Crapper (edited by Sir Thomas Crapper 2010-11-19 05:25 AM)

  • From: Gilbertsville, PA
  • Registered: 2009-12-22
  • Posts: 3,251

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

OMGuar wrote:

You know the silly part of all of this?  I could show up with  600 horsepower engine under the bonnet and there wouldn't be one thing on it that wouldn't look stone stock. It would sit there and Idle nice, no lumpy camshaft to give it away The "computer"* would be the original. Fuel injection would look bone stock In fact all of that stuff could be swapped with any properly running similar year parts.. 
Doesn't matter. First  if the car was that fast they'd quickly black flag me and kick the car off the track.. (as they should)  second that V12 is a thristy beast.. about 4 MPG on the race track. could never over come  the extra pit stops for fuel..
* it's not really a computer.. not one IC in it nor any feedback data. In fact there is no data at all other than RC networks
If I know that much about old Jaguars I'm sure that there are teams with similar or evn better knowledge about their BMW or Honda. etcIf you built a 600 HP engine,

I doubt you could hide the fact that it's been torn down and rebuilt.  I could imagine that a freshening of a jag V12 (rings, bearings, gaskets, fasteners) could be damn near the 500.00 limit.

That in itself is supicious. and worthy of BS laps.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!
  • Mulry
  • Mulry
  • Ayatollah of Rock-n-Rollah
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  • From: Dallas, TX
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 4,607

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

Honestly, if you don't care about winning then you shouldn't give a flip if you get any laps in BS judging. You can uber-cheat and Jay probably won't claim your car -- only one car has ever been truly claimed and that one was from a full-on race shop that tried to skate a worked-over SBC through tech under the guise of flat black paint (I don't count the drug-runner V12 Benz since those guys didn't want to tow the car home anyway and begged Jay to claim it)).

As regards fuel, you're not required to buy your fuel at the track. Teams usually use pump gas that they bring in themselves in 5-gallon cans, bring in race gas in 55-gal drums, or buy gas at the track.  If you're going to use anything off the beaten path, you'd be wise to get clearance from Jay well beforehand.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.
  • From: Choctaw, Oklahoma
  • Registered: 2009-11-12
  • Posts: 2,145

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

So if you wanted you could swap that 6 for a V12.  (same compartment size)

Why go with a measly 6 liter 700lb motor when I can swap in a 7.7L V8 that weighs 620lbs? Click on "Building the Jagillac" in my signature.

A Mk2 can go with a cheesy "Grey Poupon" them easy

That's the Jag you need to be building! And carbon fiber? Why not fiberglass - it's far more believable-budget for Lemons. I'd love to get a class in fiberglass.

  • From: Sacramento
  • Registered: 2010-08-09
  • Posts: 1,665

Re: who do we ask for permission or approval?

on Lightening: As you seem to want to do it nice-like - try Foam-core and Coro-plast, you could easily make a trunk-lid and door-skins with those and a bit of West-systems bonded via cut-up blue-jeans. People would be in awe (or something), and you wouldn't incur cost-wrath. Keep steel over the engine though...


I do like the idea of custom CF courses for those of us with nothing to do because we blew up too hard to fix!
~I just wish the CF cloth itself weren't so expensive... Maybe pretty fenders for the trailer? that'd easily be offset in fuel savings towing, or I could add that extra few pounds of spares to drag with ;-)

And yeah here's how you need plan your attempt for tech/judging:
- the questions about the racecar (dzus fasteners, compomotive wheels, etc) went something like this:
Judge: where'd the rest of *those* parts come from?
Me: ummm... the truth?
Judge: We're big on truth, especially if it is an interesting story (I changed that a wee bit)
Me: wah-elle... Much of it came off a completely destroyed racecar that's been in the back of the shop for ten years. No one bought any parts off of it iun the last three swapmeets so I figured it wasn't worth anything. (It mostly wasn't - they were OLD and worn out parts b4 I put them on the crashed car)
Judge: "Hey Jay! what do you want to do about the RACE car?"
~it went downhill from there, but again, I didn't bitch and I'm still laughing!  (OK, I wasn't happy with the 17-1/2 laps, I wanted 17 and 3/4' so I could put 17.75 on the roof, kinda said so and he changed it for 17 flat which still didn't work so I went the bribe route... and got the 10 I mentioned earlier)