Topic: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Ok, we're not the mechanics we wish we were (and apparently need to be) and are desperately seeking any advice to try and get our 240sx (KA24E) running again for Buttonwillow. 

Basically, we removed the head and replaced all the valve seals etc.  Put everything back on the car and it actually started but sounded terrible (we now know that it was quite possibly fine at this point but oh well).  We killed it and fiddled with some stuff (I honestly don't remember what at this point) and it started again but sounded even worse and there was some dieseling.  We thought maybe we had somehow screwed up the timing so went through and reset everything (twice-don't ask).  Now we can't get it to start.  It cranks but just won't catch (except MAYBE on one cylinder-there's an odd detonation going on).  At this point we've replaced plugs, wires and starter (not the battery but it doesn't start with one of the external 55amp starter/charger things either).

iPhone video (well, audio is relevant part) clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZLRae1rBvU

Any suggestions on things to check/try etc GREATLY appreciated.

Import Alloy Racing
The Little Red Poorvette

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Is there spark at all the plugs?

My guess is timing, cam or ignition. But check all those little and big wires at the distributor again. These nissan elec connectors sometimes corrode pretty bad, especially the plugs for the injectors. I would look for this at the CAS plug (comes forth from distributor). Pull the cap off and make sure the rotor hasn't failed, which I've seen happen.

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Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

From the vid your timing chain marks need rechecked, I do not have experience with your particular engine but a quick internet check indicates you have a interference engine... NOT good, you may have bent valves.

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Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Pull valve cover and plugs and rotate the engine by hand a couple of revolutions...watch/feel/listen for noise...be sure to spin it only in it's normal rotation i.e. not backwards..

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

If it were a Saab... which is an interference engine... after checking that you are at TDC top dead center, on the timing marks on the flywheel, then check that the cams have their alignment marks right too.  after being  very sure that the engine timing is right... the next thing is to decide if you have spark or fuel issues.  usually I spray carb cleaner or brake cleaner into the intake and crank.  if should fire and cough like it wants to start.  if it does... you most likely have a fuel or injector issue (sometimes this is caused by a crank or cam position sensor too... it wants to see the engine rotating before it squirts fuel...), if it does NOT fire then you may have an ignition issue (also can be because of a crank or cam position sensor, which ever is on your engine) some cars have a hall effect sensor in the distributor and will have another wire plugged into the distributor with about three contacts in it and will not then have the crank or cam sensor.

This is generic stuff and you need to understand which your engine runs with, are there any books available for your engine?  Do a google search on replacing the head or head gasket.  here is a link I found that shows some of the technical items.


http://forums.nicoclub.com/how-to-chang … 45686.html

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Thanks all.  I left some key information out of the first post that I intended to put in, sorry.  Mainly, that is that we know we have spark and fuel.  All that seems like those things aren't happening at the right time but we've been over the timing like 50 times and it seems correct....

We don't hear or feel any noise on manual cranking.

Import Alloy Racing
The Little Red Poorvette

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

If you bent the valves already then you wouldn't... ask me how I know this... :fullbodyshiver:

bent/broken valves+no sealing off of the combustion chamber+not the right mixture in the combustion chamber=backfires and/or missing

One dead Toyota headed to the junkyard...

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8 (edited by "Sparky" Pete 2010-11-22 12:49 AM)

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Do a quick compression check with a cheap compression gauge to make sure it's still healthy.

Then make sure you're getting "enough" spark. A weak spark is worse than no spark, because people assume it's working ok, and move on. A good homemade tester is to cut the electrode off of an old spark-plug. This increases the distance the spark has to travel and re-creates the environment inside the engine, which has about 9 times the air-resistance to overcome thanks to compression.

If the tester-plug works ok outside the motor, you have enough spark. I use a small hose clamp to attach a ground wire to it.

Also make sure your motor has an awesome ground strap securely fastened. Without one the current flows back through any path available (Like throttle cables, sensor shielding, heater controls etc) until something burns up. I see that on quite a few of my customer's cars. A melted throttle cable is a tell-tale sign.

Double check the firing order on the distributor if you monkeyed with it. I've seen folks check it half a dozen times and suddenly realize something was swapped and they suddenly "see" it.

Make sure the rotor is pointing at the #1 wire near top dead center on the compression stroke. If everything is 90deg off, and 2 of the wires are swapped the car may start and sorta run if the timing is off. From there it's easy to get caught in an endless black hole of "I already tried that" swapping from one incorrect firing order to another without re-indexing #1.

2 sticks of dynamite will also end all your worries.

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Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Your cam is out of time. The problem is that it's not a SBC, you don't align the two timing dots with each other. You need to get ahold of a service manual (available somewhere on the web for free) and see where to align the marks to. I don't remember how to align it because I haven't been a Nissan tech for 10 years now, but I'll put dollars to donuts that's your problem.

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

The timing is likely already corrected but inspect the valves carefully, I fear the worst...

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11 (edited by EyeMWing 2010-11-22 11:40 AM)

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Are you SUUUUUUURE your timing is right? (Link goes to image)
http://www.phyrefile.com/image/view/px7EsZW7Nk8A7fWg

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Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

We're going to go thru the timing (we've never done timing on an SBC either so no preconceived notions-we've been following the FSM) one. More. Time. Tonight as well as do a compression test again. (we did one before the first fire up which was fine but we've messed around with things a lot since then)
In the (unlikely) event that all that checks out we will investigate electrical next.

Thanks!

Import Alloy Racing
The Little Red Poorvette

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Triple check fuel supply.  I had a car where the socket for the fuel pump relay was loose so the fuel pump would run intermittently and pressure would be low when it did run.  I just "tightened" the lugs in the socket with a small screwdriver, car's run for three years since then.  Might not be it, but it's worth a shot.

(Similar symptoms, no start, when it did run it ran like ass.)

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Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Watching & listening to the vid, it sure sounds like an engine that has jumped time and bent some valves.

That's all I got for you. sad

Jim C.
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Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

vizlvr wrote:

Ok, We thought maybe we had somehow screwed up the timing so went through and reset everything (twice-don't ask).  Now we can't get it to start.

When you pulled the head, how did you keep the timing chain on the lower gear?
Which you couldn't see, because you didn't pull the front cover? or you did pull the front engine cover?

As noted before.
1. pull all the plugs out. rotate the engine by hand or with a wrench on the front bolt. 27mm or 1 1/16" (1 1/8") should work, its a Nissan. the engine should turn easily by hand. if it does not, take it apart.
2. Pop the valve cover off. Look at all the springs, retainers, valve positions. look for any gaps between cam and cam followers, busted parts, etc....
3. Put a big screw driver in the #1 plug hole so it touches the piston, Rotate and find top dead center (TDC). look down at the timing mark on the front pulley. Does the mark line up? it should, or you'd have the wrong pulley on there.
Look at the cam lobes for the #1 cylinder, they should be pointed up toward the hood, meaning the #1 valves are closed. If NOT, rotate the engine 360 degrees and check again. If neither of those are correct, the cams are timed wrong. Write back, for more instructions. it might be that you drop the timing chain enough to allow it to move one or two teeth on the lower drive gear.

4. with out rotating the engine, pop the distributor cap. and see if the rotor is pointed directly at the #1 plug wire. It should be. If not, your distributor drive is off, or the distributor is not timed correctly. Verify per the shop manual the alignment of the drive tab on the distributor drive (engine side). If that is off, that means you dropped the oil pump and didn't put the drive shaft back in place with the correct clocking. read the manual to get that right, then re-install the dizzy and see if you can get the rotor pointed at the #1 wire in the cap.
5. loosen the distributor base so you can rotate the dizzy. put a plug into the #1 wire and lay it on something metal of the engine so you can see the spark gap. Spin the engine over with the starter. You should see a spark at the plug. watch to see if you can judge if teh spark is at TDC. You could put a timing light on it to help see the cam lobes or pulley timing mark.
Then stop and rotate the engine by hand to 10 or 15 BTDC (the timing mark)- engine ON (not start)- and rotate the dizzy to see if you can get the spark. Locate the dizzy at the spot where you have a spark on the #1 plug at 10 BTDC. You have just statically timed your engine.
Put the plugs and valve cover back in/on.
6. Check the rotation direction of the dizzy (cap off, spin the engine). Then put the plug wires back into the cap in the right order, direction.
7. Number the cap ports for the plug wires #s. Do the same on the valve cover so any one of your wives can re-do the plug wiring in the dark with a flashlight.
8. If it still won't run you have some other  fuel/computer/electrical problem

9 to check fuel, pull an injector out and put it in a glass jar and crank the engine to see it spray. check all the injectors.
You can put a Volt Ohm meter (set for Ohms resistance) and measure each injector resistance. look up what yours is supposed to be.

write back if all that fails and we'll try and figure out what else to look at.

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Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

mackwagon wrote:

When you pulled the head, how did you keep the timing chain on the lower gear?
Which you couldn't see, because you didn't pull the front cover? or you did pull the front engine cover?

We did not pull the front timing cover.  We used the popular internet method of a wooden wedge to keep the timing chain on the lower sprocket.  Timing then reset by manual cranking to TDC and aligning cam sprocket keyway at 12o'clock (then remove cam sprocket, install chain and reinstall.  Ensure keyway still at 12o'clock and engine at TDC).  I think we still managed to mess this up somehow.  We have subsequenly also messed with the oilpump shaft and dizzy and no longer trust anything.

Thank you so much for the detailed write up.  Unfortunately, our compression test last night revealed good compression in only one cylinder-#4 .  While I know a compression test is not especially useful if indeed the timing is screwed up, it seems like the fact we have compression on 1 cylinder suggests we have bent valves on the others (?).  We started pulling the head back off last night for further investigation.

Anyone know if Pick and Pull is planning to do their 50% sale things this weekend?  I've heard they often do on Thanksgiving weekend but find no mention on their website.  I have a feeling we might need it....

mackwagon wrote:

7. Number the cap ports for the plug wires #s. Do the same on the valve cover so any one of your wives can re-do the plug wiring in the dark with a flashlight.

I am one of the wives wink

Import Alloy Racing
The Little Red Poorvette

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

If you rotated the cam independently of the crank, you probably dinged some valves. The technician I interned under showed me where to set the crank so you could rotate the cam freely, but I can't remember. He also told me that you can ding the valves without feeling resistance.

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

vizlvr wrote:

Anyone know if Pick and Pull is planning to do their 50% sale things this weekend?  I've heard they often do on Thanksgiving weekend but find no mention on their website.

Once Pick Your Part left Northern California, Pick-N-Pull stopped doing half-off sales (and raised all their prices across the board). No competition = no need for sales.

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

So we pulled the head off last night (in record time....for us.  We're, um, getting sorta good at this...).

All of the valves look perfect- pulled them all out and checked with straight edge, detailed visual inspection etc.  No marks or other evidence on the pistons of anything either.  HOWEVER- in pulling everything off we found a number of bolts that were not even sort of tight.  Including nearly all of the bolts on the intake rocker arm shaft.  I was working night shift during the head re-install so I wasn't around during that part and can't comment on what happened.  People seem to recall tightening things but apparently not well enough/ with inadequate torque wrench usage. 

The question of the day now is whether or not our loose rocker arm shaft could have caused our problems.  There was a little...incident where some motor mounts were not retightened at the first start up (a part was dropped in the oil pan.  Removing the oil pan on our car requires unbolting a couple motor mounts and jacking up the engine a bit.) so there was some crazy movement which could easily have loosened bolts that were snug but not tight.  So we were (sort of) ok on first start up then knocked everything loose?  We did still have compression on #4, however, as of Monday night before we pulled the head again.  The intake rocker arm bolts were tightest down by #4 but still not all that tight.  ???

What else should we be looking for with the head apart again?

I know you all are shaking your heads/facepalming for us but we're trying to learn, really!  Some of us are, perhaps, not as detail oriented as we need to be. (I've learned to always ask questions like....did we put oil back in?  Did we put coolant back in?  Apparently I did not ask enough of such questions.)

Bummer about Pick-n-pull.  I saw that Pick your part was doing the 50% off thing this weekend but Bakersfield (the closest one) is just a bit far for us for that (though could be useful during the race!).  Though perhaps we don't need it after all...

Import Alloy Racing
The Little Red Poorvette

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

vizlvr wrote:

We did not pull the front timing cover.  We used the popular internet method of a wooden wedge to keep the timing chain on the lower sprocket.  Timing then reset by manual cranking to TDC and aligning cam sprocket keyway at 12o'clock (then remove cam sprocket, install chain and reinstall.  Ensure keyway still at 12o'clock and engine at TDC).  I think we still managed to mess this up somehow.  We have subsequently also messed with the oil pump shaft and dizzy and no longer trust anything.

OK, yes you probably let the chain slip down a little and that was enough to allow it to slip one or two teeth. Fairly common problem for Datsun/nissan 4 bangers until you learn how to prevent it.

So now that you are pulling the head, pull the front timing cover and visually verify that the timing chain mark (dot) matches the lower gear mark. To do this, put the trans in 4th gear, stand on the brakes and if you can put a wrench on the cam shaft, then undo the the front crank bolt. then its just a couple bolts to get the front cover off.

Use Jasco paint stripper (same nasty chemicals as auto store gasket remover) to clean all the gasket surfaces along with an old tooth brush, or maybe a razor scraper. That's fairly risk free for steel surfaces (the block), but you need to be careful with an aluminum surface (head and front cover), since the razor will scrape off Aluminum and ruin the flat surface. rubber gloves, safety glasses and let the chemical do the work, brush around periodically.

Use Permatex gray or new gaskets for the front cover, since there is a good chance to mix oil and water if you don't get the front cover sealed up.

Then go to the library and get the manual so you can get the timing drive/oil pump drive in the right clocking. You can paint a mark on the distributor mounting area or file a slight mark into the front timing cover once you have the oil pump shaft in the right place, so any one of your mechanics can replace it/clock it in the dark with a flash light.

vizlvr wrote:

I am one of the wives wink

Didn't mean to slam you/the wives, that was more of a poke at the men on your team. Happy to hear you are driving/wrenching.

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?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

get the manual so you can get the timing drive/oil pump drive in the right clocking

IIRC, the timing/oil pump drive is an offset tab, not a gear. You can't get it wrong.

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

EriktheAwful wrote:

get the manual so you can get the timing drive/oil pump drive in the right clocking

IIRC, the timing/oil pump drive is an offset tab, not a gear. You can't get it wrong.

The offset tab is on the end that you attach the dizzy to.  However, there is a gear on the other end of the shaft that can be inserted at any number of positions.  So you can get it wrong...  Although as long as the offset tab is in the right position, you know its correct (assuming, anyway, you have the crankshaft in the correct position as well...).

I have a possible stupid question and am probably missing something obvious here but why does it matter if you have the special gold link on the chain lined up with the dot on the gear?  As long as the lower and upper keyways on the sprockets are in the correct positions we can't figure out why it matters which link of the chain is where.  What are we missing?

Thanks again all for your help!

Import Alloy Racing
The Little Red Poorvette

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

You need the cam to crank timing spot on.  Since there are chain guides/tensioners they take up the chain play.  They put marks on the timing links so you can just align them with the dot or whatever they do at the crank and cam and not worry about the slack making the timing off by a tooth or more when they get tensioned.

The CAS or distributor needs to be timed correctly too.  Some have a gear and some are offset keyed so you can mess it up depending on which style you have.  You have to make sure the crank and cam are at tdc.  The cam spins 2x for the crank spinning 1x so your distributor/cas can be 180 off and firing on the wrong tdc stroke.

If you want i could email you the alldata info on how to time the chain and distributor on monday.  If you want it email me the year model of the engine and an email address.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

I just did a head gasket and timing chain in a KA24 last week if you still need help maybe I can help you over the phone.  My # is 909 483 0175 should be home by 7pm on monday.

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25 (edited by Junkyard Dog 2010-11-28 06:47 PM)

Re: Plea for help- Can't get it running...

Dizzy is out of time. Had a helluva time with my brother in law's KA24DE swap in a 510 Datsun until we timed the dizzy per the correct manual instructions.

Good instructions from: http://www.texasnissans.com/tx/forums/s … hp?t=11614

Ok guys I have heard the same issue a million and one times. Time to put this in a spot where anyone can find it easily. I too have been caught on installing the dizzy 180deg.
Have You removed your dizzy and reinstalled and the car wont start? Here are some signs it is back wards.
1. You have spark
2. sometimes after a series of cranking it it back fires or tries to start
3. You plugs or exhaust pipe smells like fuel.

If you have at least 1,3 then 99% sure you installed it on the exhaust stroke. SO now your asking how do I know its on the exhaust stroke? Ok down to the basics..

Step 1: Ensure your motor is on the compression stroke
a. Remove the #1 Spark Plug
b. Put the spark plug wire back in the hole
remove the coil wire connection 2 pin plug on side of the Dizzy before continuing. Or off the Coil if its an external coil Dizzy.
c. Crank the car once or until the plug wire pops up from the hole.(Stop as soon as it pops up)
d. Find your timming mark on the crank and line up the timing point for TDC(Top Dead center) (should be within 2 inches once the plug wire pops out) ( Motor turns clock wise if facing the crank) Once the motor is TDC go to step 2.

STEP 2: If your distributor is already installed remove the cap and verify where the rotor is pointing if it is pointing down towards the fire wall its 180deg out. (NORMAL DIRECTION is contact pointing up and towards the front of the car. If it is in this direction it may still be off a couple teeth continue procedure) This is why your motor isnt running and its on the exhaust stroke. If your unsure you set the TDC wrong because you cranked to much do step 1 again.

Step 3. If it is 180 deg out from the previous steps. Remove the 2 10mm bolts that hold the distributor in and pull it straight out.

Step 4. reinsert the distributor with the marks on the gear lined up. (Dimple on the gear with the gruve on the shaft) As your inserting this line the rotor 1/2 way over the hump on the optical disc cover. (I will add pics later). This will put it almost exactly 20deg of timming. Make sure when putting the distributor in that the bolt hole is in the center of the adjusting area. Put everything back remember Plug 1 isnt installed.

Step 4. Start the car. Depending on how wet the plugs are with fuel you may need to swap plugs. Let it idle for a while and warm up and check timming according to your FSM. Also the FSM has pictures of where the timming marks are and the marks on the Dizzy if you dont have a clue where to look for these I will be posting pictures here for a better understanding.

Enjoy and happy motoring

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