The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → Doors/Sheet Metal Chopdown Rule Updates?
Any word on this? we'd like to lighten the buick to something more typical of a race entry, but with all the rumors of rule updates requiring full doors or limiting the amount of chopping down you can do to a car has prevented me from going to town on the car with a sawzall. is there any real formulation updates in the works? or is it just some rumor-mongering?
I suspect that you don't want to do anything that would imperil, reduce, or potentially compromise your factory crush zones. ;-)
I would try to keep it looking like a car. We're keeping our ultra-heavy Jag's body intact but cutting out the inner door sheetmetal, hood bracing, trunk bracing, etc. Keep it recognizable if you can. Once the sheetmetal's bashed weld on some corrugated roofing.
Keep your doors and don't shorten the car, just some advice
-John
Whats wrong with shortening the car as long as its cosmetic and structuraly sound?
Are gutting the doors still ok? You should be able to drop some weight that way.
Shortening is probably now against the rules ofter teh chicago race. An MR2 had its nose and rear cut off and then had steel tubing that while within the original body was effectively a nerf bar. THis MR2 then ran into a crx and destroyed it.
Keep your doors and don't shorten the car, just some advise
-John
Hi John,
I suspect that over the next couple of months while the season switches from 2010 to 2011 a lot of people will be revising themes and modifying their LeMony rides....it would be great if we could get some sort of clarification on what will be acceptable and what won't. I have to say I'm a little worried as we've already had a right good chop at our car, but despite that I'd still say that it's far stronger than an unmolested 1970's Lancia!
It would be good to know if I have to rebuilt as per original shape or if the metimorph...metamorf...changes.. we intend will rule us out of Lemons 2011.
Any assistance greatly appreciated!
Steven
Whats wrong with shortening the car as long as its cosmetic and structuraly sound?
In the abstract, nothing is wrong with it. But bear in mind that safety has to be the first priority in running this race. Sure, Jay can get insurance now, but if he has to make a claim on that policy, you can bet that one of two things will happen: either the cost goes through the roof (and that bears on all of us, since we are the ones paying for it indirectly through entry fees), or worse, we become uninsurable, which means that the series vanishes.
So it's very important that the series be safe, both for the practical (not wanting to get anybody hurt) and for the strategic (the long-term existence of the series). But making sure that these beasts are safe can be exceedingly difficult to efficiently administer, and maybe no more so than with the cut-down car. How does one prove, succinctly and sufficiently and quickly (because we all know how many cars have to roll through tech) that a cut-down car is still structurally sound and safe both to the driver and to the other cars? It's not like we're out crash-testing cut-down cars like NHTSA and IIHS. We can argue engineering specs and et cetera, but that doesn't get the cars rolling through tech efficiently, nor does it really prove that the cars are safe. But if the car retains its factory crush zone, then it's an easy argument: it's at least as safe as it was the day it left the factory (which wasn't able to release the car for sale without meeting at least some standard of crash testing, at least on the more modern cars), which means that the series isn't allowing unsafe cars to race. Which means that, as a series, it is more likely to live to race another day.
We could argue this 'til the cows come home, but at the end of the day, I think you'll not want to do anything that could imperil, reduce, or potentially compromise your factory crush zones.
Are gutting the doors still ok? You should be able to drop some weight that way.
I suspect that gutting the doors will still be ok, since we have to have dual door bars on the driver's side already. I think the factory crush zones at issue are the front and rear that we've seen cut down in a lot of cars over the years (look at the West Coast cars for some really good examples).
I suspect that over the next couple of months while the season switches from 2010 to 2011 a lot of people will be revising themes and modifying their LeMony rides....it would be great if we could get some sort of clarification on what will be acceptable and what won't. I have to say I'm a little worried as we've already had a right good chop at our car, but despite that I'd still say that it's far stronger than an unmolested 1970's Lancia!
It would be good to know if I have to rebuilt as per original shape or if the metimorph...metamorf...changes.. we intend will rule us out of Lemons 2011.
The 2011 rules will surely be out soon. I haven't seen them yet either. But if I were you, I'd read between the lines on John/Evil Genius's post a bit. And while there will surely be some wiggle room, I'd stop cutting out structure if you've started doing that. I suspect that the revised rules are likely to strongly disapprove of cutting out factory crush structure.
Keep your cars classy and looking like cars
Steve, Mark
who teched your car at New Orleans? was it Chris (track manager with a hat)?
or was it John (tall / thin / devilish good looks in a Lemons staff shirt)?
if it was John, that is the same John (Evil Genius). I'm sure he would have said something to you at the track: "Next time i want to see..."
It was John who gave us a damn good teching! Actually I don't think any of the judges noticed that we have about 18" chopped out of the roofline of our E30/El Camino wanna be.....Steve is now referring to some adjustment to the rear -boot (I think you call it the truck) area......Im pretty sure we are not either compromising any crumple zones and in fact we are planning to add a couple of extensions to the roll cage that will improve that, without creating any hazard for other drivers. We are effectively getting rid of the area that held golf clubs in its former life.....and Steve loves to weld these days!
What about cars that come pre-crumpled?
We are effectively getting rid of the area that held golf clubs in its former life.....and Steve loves to weld these days!
For your own benefit, please do not cut out factory crush zone structure. Even if you plan to weld in new steel to replace what you cut out, it's likely to cause you a problem with passing tech in 2011 and beyond. For more instruction, you might want to contact Jay directly.
Keep your cars classy
this assumes that they were classy to start with.
I've started and deleted a dozen posts to this thread, but any answers I'm looking for hinge on what the new rules say so there's no point in me asking any questions about this topic except this one...
...can anyone tell me the date when the new rules will be published please?
What about socks - are they in or out?
...can anyone tell me the date when the new rules will be published please?
Yes. Jay could tell you. If he knows.
Keep your doors and don't shorten the car, just some advise
-John
Keep in mind John is a tech inspector and has an inside connection to things. Follow this advice for now!!
I guess thats great advice about reading between the lnies and Johns suggestions, but if there is an impending rule change, then we need more than hints and tips......totaly agree that we need to keep eveyone safe etc but our fabricating skills are pretty crude and it takes us 3 days to decide where we want to cut something! Isn't the Lemons diversity and uniqueness of designs half the appeal.....we don't want a touring car championship after all.....
all i'm worried about is the effects on a car with skinned doors welded back to the body of the car... should that be okay through tech?
Put it this way: they're going to want to be able to look at the car and not have to say, "WTF was that?" I would carefully put all the cutting tools down and walk slowly away from them for now.
My guess - and I've been told very little other than, "Don't put too much more work into your Crown Vic, it probably won't be back next year," is that they are going to want to see an unmodified frame and all structural body panels present, excluding the roof. I'm willing to bet door skins will be required, but not full door structures.
Take all of the above with a grain of salt. This is pure conjecture.
For an example of what won't be allowed:
Pretty much don't do anything you see in the above picture and you'll be ok.
Pretty much don't do anything you see in the above picture and you'll be ok.
except for the presence of the hood and driver's door (which we added back on after an autoX test day)...you should be safe keeping those.
i also highly recommend the addition of a big-ass wing.
in the case of that vic i think the only reservation really would be the completely exposed gastank to rearward impact. other than that i don't see much of an issue.
this really is keeping me stuck on what to do with the lesabre. I wanna revise the theme for next season and get more juice from the plant, but also wanna reduce weight. these hints are just making me more hesitant to do and panel or sheetmetal swaps
Inner door skins are not structural in any way, they are there to support the armrest, electric or manual window winder, door lock etc.....in fact some of the really nice NACAR style roll cages protrude out into the door area.....the rool cage is much stronger than a door skin....
Do we need to run with bumbers in 2011 I wonder? I noticed a lot of cars have done away with them.....we have been considering removing ours too?
in the case of that vic i think the only reservation really would be the completely exposed gastank to rearward impact. other than that i don't see much of an issue.
there was actually a good amount of rear fender/frame rail extending past the tank as well as a pretty stout cross-brace running between the frame rails. speakng personally, i didn't feel the slightest bit unsafe in the car.
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