Topic: Lemons lap counting. . .

Hi All - relative n00b here, as I just finished my 2nd Lemons event at Arse-Freeze Buttonwillow last weekend.

I was looking at some lap data between the top teams and our team, and not only did I see that the top teams are making only two pit stops for 3 drivers per day, but their stops appear to be much faster than ours.  For example, the POS Racing team pitted at lap 42, and their "lap time" on the following lap was 5:26, or 3:11 off their fastest pace.  Same for lap 92, which registered as a 5:27 lap time, so was 3:12 off their fastest lap.

Conversely, our lap times when we pitted increased by about 8 minutes off our fastest lap, and we timed our pit time from when the car stopped to when it left to be about 5 minutes.  Point-being, I'm curious if the transponder system may have missed our laps since we didn't drive past or very-near to S/F when we were pitted.  I figure it took us about 45s to drive from pit exit to our pit spot, and another 45s from our pit spot to track entrance.  If I add that 1.5 minutes to our pit time of 5 minutes and combine it with an additional lap of 2:30, I get the 8 minutes of total "pit" time.

That can't be the same for every team, because if so, then POS Racing is making 30-40s pit stops including drive in/out, driver change, and fuel: impossible.

Thoughts?

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

Did POS have a better pit spot position?

Benson Young, Team Nemesis #88, debuting at MSR 2011
Raced Hard, Raced Ugly, got the nickels, moving on...

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

We did a lot of work on our pit stops from our first race to the last, and it made a huge difference.  You don't realize how much time you waste.  We were amazed at how much time we used at Nelson's.  We managed to cut about 2 minutes off each stop the second time we went to gingerman.  Same pit stop.  Just make sure everything is ready, and have an extra person suited up to fuel.  That way driver comes out, get's handed fire extinguisher, and spare person fuels.  As soon as the cap goes on, new driver in the car.  Makes a big difference, at least for us.

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

Davis has it spot on.  Ideally you should have two drivers in the pits partially suited up at all times if possible.  Work on your team with how your fuel stops should go and stick to that plan.

Pendejo - There is no such thing as a racing budget and if you can't afford to set it on fire and watch it burn while drinking a beer then don't race it.

5 (edited by Markdas 2010-12-09 06:00 AM)

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

+1

We are only 2 races into this madness and we are so very disorganised and slow....but we know that and are working on it!

Some fuel issues that we have seen.....

Some places seem to allow electric fuel transfer pumps in the fuel area, some don't....

Some places want big drip trays under the fuel filler area, some dont.....although one team at New Orleans got a black flag penalty for excessive fuel spillage in the fuel area....

We bought a couple of 5 gallon fuel containers, but so far we are not that impressed with the vent system to allow the fuel to exit quickly enough....for 2 hours driving we can put about 10 gallons in the car......currently its taking us a good 7-10 minutes to do that, then we flap around getting a new driver in and hence losing a lot of laps!

Watch some of the experienced teams to see what techniques they use, the communication between crews and their equipment......

Our first race, we were lugging around fuel cans, funnels, extinguisher  etc by hand in 100 degree texas heat......never again!

Is it because I is an E30 owner???

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

we finally got our pit stops down.  We can do them in 3-4 minutes now, but it involves having all four of us available.   We also usually manage to check and top off the oil, and sometimes check tires and clean the windshield.  Unless you're running a 24 hour event where you need some sleep shifts, all of your team should be working every stop to maximize your effectiveness and efficiency.  Also, get bigger hoses on two cans.  The hose is typically the rate-determining factor in fueling.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

In our first races the pit stops were as slow as molasses. Over 5 minute stops are deadly. We started watching the fast guys stops and learned. We are down to 3 minutes or less, stopped time.

You need fuel jugs that empty quickly, 5 gal. in less than 30 seconds. A wagon to haul the heavy jugs to the pit lane or from the gas pumps to your pit. Be ready for the stop. No fumbling around getting the firesuit on etc. when the car is coming in. The pit crew should be ready and waiting by then. When the car stops, help the driver undo the belts, cool suit hoses, radio wires, water bottle hose, etc and get them out of the car. Same for getting back into the car. One person on either side is best. Watch your pit speed leaving, in all the rush and hurrying around it's easy to forget there's a pit speed limit. The Judges get very angry with pit speeders. That's a big no-no.

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

We timed every pit stop for our 1st two races.  On Sunday of our last race we pitted only twice, and spent a total of 6 mins in the pits the WHOLE day.  So we lost 4 laps over the absolute maximum.

We finished 13/87 mainly because we were ALWAYS on the track.  Our fastest lap time was not in the top 50 of fastest lap times.

You can't win overall or even your class if you have black flags or pit very slowly.

As one of the judges said, you have to have a top 10 fastest car, have no black flags, no breakdowns and very few (and quick) pit stops to win overall (you do NOT have to have the fastest car).

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

bky wrote:

Did POS have a better pit spot position?

This can be the biggest factor.  One of the things I like about the New Orleans race is the way the paddock is designed.  Every car has to drive the same distance from tract exit to track entrance.  Pit location in the paddock has very little impact on the total off track time a stop takes.

Most other tracks it seems you need to get there EARLY to get the best pit spots in the paddock.

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

Doug I wrote:
bky wrote:

Did POS have a better pit spot position?

This can be the biggest factor.  One of the things I like about the New Orleans race is the way the paddock is designed.  Every car has to drive the same distance from tract exit to track entrance.  Pit location in the paddock has very little impact on the total off track time a stop takes.

Most other tracks it seems you need to get there EARLY to get the best pit spots in the paddock.

They sure did.  They were right between track entrance and exit, and we were a few rows back.  We were early - 6am on Friday -  but I elected to have a spot one back from the main traffic to have power.  Those guys must have arrived on Thursday and snagged a spot knowing that it wouldn't be in the way of Lemons HQ.

I looked at the video footage last night with our team captain, and it actually typically took us 90s to get from track out to our pit.  Add our 5.5 minute pit stop and about 90s to get back onto the track and there are your 9 minutes. 

We JAM at our pit stops.  The team is suited and ready, we yank the driver out and fuel up with two high-flow 5 gallon jugs.  While the driver gets back in and two guys help with his belt and radio, two other guys check the oil, clean the window, measure and adjust tire pressures, and retorque the lugnuts.  All that work is done while the driver is still strapping in.  I honestly don't see how we could be all that much faster.  POS, for example, is still 5 minutes faster - I see 2 of those minutes being because we are so much further away, but have no idea how to get the other 3 minutes.  That means their complete car-stopped time is 2 minutes, which is amazing.

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

At Summit Point, we easily burned 8-20 minutes on every stop thanks to a leisurely pumps-only fuel strategy and needing to adjust the sub belt so I'd fit. At CMP, we improved to ~ 5 minutes on no-fuel stops and 10-15 on fuel stops because of flow rate issues from our fueling setup.

As we were rotating drivers every hour, pit strategy hurt HARD.

I've heard legends of DIY fueling setups that push 10 gallons into the car in 30 seconds using only the power of gravity.

When the track permits, do all your fuel and driver changes on pit lane instead of the paddock. The other tasks aren't really necessary.

There definitely is room for you to improve - there was one team at CMP that was doing 1:30 stops in the hot pits. Their routine was something like this:
Guy 1 forcibly rips the Driver 1 head first out of the seat (seriously, the driver landed on the ground outside the car)
Driver 2 tosses a drip tray under the car while that happens, and undoes the gas cap.
Guy 3 is standing around holding a fire extinguisher, looking important.
Guy 4 Runs the fuel cans.
Once the last fuel can is down, Guy 1 and Driver 1 strap Driver 2 down while guys 3 and 4 clear the fueling equipment.


DRILL. Time the flow rate from your cans into the car once - and have an extra dude run a stopwatch to actually simulate filling the car with gas. Seriously, do you have anything better to do on Friday?

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

we raced our first race at CMP this last October and knew we werent going to win so we just pulled into the garage and checked over everything, switched drivers and fueled. But while we were sitting around while the car was on the track one of the guys from the winning BMW crew came over and asked us if they could use our 10 gal quick fill jug. I asked them later how it went and they said they only lost 1 lap as opposed to 3-4 that they were losing before, I was glad to help they ran pretty much flawless all day and that is the big factor.

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

New rules just came out, so we'll all be using five gallon jugs.
No more rigs or big fast-fill cans.


KT

TH 2009- 40th ~ SP 2010- 13th Class Bad win!! TH 2010- 17th ~TH 2010- 16th  SP 2011- 20th ~ RF 2011- 13th Least Horrible Yank Tank ~ TH 2011- 79th
SP 2011- 105th ~ SP 2012- 119th ~ SP 2013- 139th ~ BW 2013- 17th
Follow Filthy on Facebook: Flailing Lizard Motorsports

Re: Lemons lap counting. . .

There are still some 5 gallon DOT/EPA/Carb quick-fill jugs out there.

It's also handy to note that there are many nominally 5-gallon cans that will handily fill to at least 6.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear