Suggested rule change concerning fueling (Page 1 of 4)

Do you believe this is a current or anticipated problem?  I haven't walked the pits of all Lemons races, but the only two fuel rigs I've seen around here are Eyesore's and the Death Cab/Model T GT team's.  Both were made from inexpensive parts (ours from a truck gas tank) and appear to be safer than trying to juggle and dump multiple fuel cans in a stop.  I know that we haven't spilled a drop since going to the fuel rig.

I don't see how clever engineering that helps your performance isn't in the spirit of the series.

That being said, I can imagine that someone could (will?) build an unsafe fuel rig and cause a massive fire in the pits.  I wouldn't cry if they adopted the fuel-jugs only policy, but I'd be pissed if I felt like it was adopted because teams were upset that someone found and implemented a clever advantage for little $$.

Just one guy's opinion.

Dean

look, the only fires at a Lemons race I'm aware of, was nowhere near the pits, and little to do with fueling methodology. there's zero tolerance of fuel system leaks(check out gingerman from october; i heard like 3-4 teams AT LEAST got trailered from the fuel rules) and there's pretty harsh penalties for spills. Changing the current ruleset for this at this point in time only serves the guys who haven't invented/bought something better by now, or are upset that they don't want to put some effort into working this issue out. Maybe phil can chime in but I'm pretty sure i can count on one hand the amount of fueling-related penalties(paddock/hot pit spills, leaks, mishaps, etc)

I could also venture to say that using standard, EPA-approved, slow-as-all-hell fueling methods in standard, approved cans actually increases the spill risk because it takes 2-3mins PER CAN to dump them. add that up and by the third can, your fueler may be starting to have issues holding the can properly.

I have to agree with posters so far.....fuelling from cans is not a good way to go. We have been getting progressively better with fuelling stops from our first race in the blistering heat of MSR Houston where we didn't even have a fuel dolly and had to hand carry all our fuel the 200 yards to the fuelling station (we won't be doing THAT again!) to our last race at NPR in Louisiana where we had a dolly, but were still using cans and to be honest, we're lucky we didn't get a black flag for spillage, there was gas everywhere during one stop.....next race we will have a proper method of getting fuel into the car using some sort of pump.

I'll admit that the fact that the upcoming refulling method is faster than fuelling from cans is a driver for us to introduce it, but it is also a lot safer -

Nobody will be trying to hold anything heavy for extended periods - and those cans get heavy quickly!
There won't be any spillage due to overfilling because the cans don't have an auto shut-off nozzle.
All the auto shut-off nozzles I've seen state that they won't work with a gravity fulleing system, but they will work with a pump.
It also means that we can use a larger volume tank / barrel / drum to hold our fuel so the risk of fire and spillage during the many refilling operations required when using the small fuel cans is eliminated.

Now that I've written all that down I'm thinking that the rule should be that everyone has a decent rig for fuelling because those wee cans are dangerous!

Steven

The mjor point I was trying to get across is that if you have no limits on fueling methods eventually someone (with enough money)
will show up with an F1/helicopter fueling rig...regardless of whether they know how to use it or not.
IMHO I just don't feel having an arms race concerning fueling is in the spirit of ANY amateur racing series...not just Lemons.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for engineering the hell outta sumthin', but my minor point is if we let a buncha goofballs like
ourselves design our own fueling rigs, disaster will ensue...maybe not tomorrow but eventually, yes.

So, in short I feel this rule would help prevent the biggest checkbook winning the race and it will also help prevent the 21st
century's equivalent of 'Gomer' causing a fire that can be seen from the Space Station.

-Dave

I.O.E. is the winner, and this will never a problem in those pits. You are talking about the fastest looser, which no one really cares aboot.

While several of the "faster" teams near us were doing 35msec pit stops all frantic-like, we were having hot dogs. So I ask you, who had the better pit-stop?

Ok, next time fried in bacon fat. Booya!

Yeah, I went there... what you got? Bring it on, biotch.

Wait til the 2011 rules come out. I think there's gonna be a lot of illegal fuel rigs for sale on E-Bay.

Pressurized rigs remind me of the F1 pit fire at Hockenhiem(?). The fuel splashes when disconnecting hits a hot brake rotor and poof!

Now, I've never seen a fire in a Lemons pit lane, but with all the homemade fueling rigs, one day it could go wrong. And we don't have suited up firemen standing at every pit stall like the big boys have. Sure there are others around with fire extingushers waiting for their car to pit, but no one is a trained fireman. There are firemen at the track but how far away are they?

If that's really the case, then why isn't the top IOE winner going to France next year???

Agreed that they'll probably be outlawed in 2011.

The one thing that would keep it from escalating is this:

1.1: Organizers Decisions: Organizers decisions are final. If you don't like it, tough. Get your own race.

If Jay or any of the BS or tech judges felt like you were doing something unsafe, unsavory or over the top ($$), they could just give you penalty laps or kick you out.

Not worth fighting over, even though I don't buy the slippery slope argument. 

Like I said, I'll be disappointed to have to go back to a less safe, less reliable, less convenient, more error prone method of fueling.  Slower I don't much care about.

Cheers,

Dean

i think you're way overestimating the potential for a team to "buy" a win by using an expensive fueling rig.  sure, it helps but there are any of 6 dozen other things that play a bigger role in determining whether a team even finishes, let alone wins on distance.

+1 ^^^ but i would also allow hand pumps.  Keep the fuel low on the ground.  We don't need a bunch of 24 gallon fuel tanks on 8' towers, on wheels just waiting to tip over.

I doubt that they would ever be able to really agree on top IOE winner since there is not quantitative way to score them.  You would have to send them all.