The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → Suggested rule change concerning fueling
24 gallon fuel cell, 26 gallon fuel cell remote fill tube. 
I think everyone is up in arms b/c fueling is the one 'dead' time where you absolutely gain minutes of time through having the fastest fueling possible. We lost inordinate amounts of time with our 8min pit stops and 5gal jugs last year, so i can understand wanting an edge here.
I'm not so sure those rated 5.25gal tanks would be okay. Kinda like the 24gal fuel tank rule, would a team with a 25gal cell pass tech? I thought the 24gal was chosen b/c fuel cells come in 20/25gal sizes. I know they gave Clueless racing trouble thinking they had a 25, but learned it was a custom ordered 24gal cell. I'd bet people will see those nozzles and point out that's a 5.25gal cell. I'm not saying i would, but you might want to be very clear before investing in those. The rule doesn't say 5-ish gallon tanks.
I think everyone is up in arms b/c fueling is the one 'dead' time where you absolutely gain minutes of time through having the fastest fueling possible. We lost inordinate amounts of time with our 8min pit stops and 5gal jugs last year, so i can understand wanting an edge here.
I'm not so sure those rated 5.25gal tanks would be okay. Kinda like the 24gal fuel tank rule, would a team with a 25gal cell pass tech? I thought the 24gal was chosen b/c fuel cells come in 20/25gal sizes. I know they gave Clueless racing trouble thinking they had a 25, but learned it was a custom ordered 24gal cell. I'd bet people will see those nozzles and point out that's a 5.25gal cell. I'm not saying i would, but you might want to be very clear before investing in those. The rule doesn't say 5-ish gallon tanks.
If its *rated* at 5.25 then you are correct its a no-go but if its rated as a 5...but happens to hold 5.25 because manufacturers are lazy and rounded off then its going to be ok. Noone is going to go around and check the capacity of each jug, if it says 5 gallons it will be accepted as a 5 gallon jug.
Proper prep to keep the car turning laps is the #1 key to finishing well, not dump cans! You can't turn laps when you are fixing some stupid thing or other that should have been done at home. We know; we fought our '08 and '09 car to the point where we finally gave up (of course murdering it through repeated massive overheating helped with that decision). At CMP we were 36th in 2008, 72nd in 2009 and 11th in 2010 (we ran as high as 6th).
Also, pit strategy has a lot more to do with results than some super fast dump can. We adopted the following strategy, designed by one of our crew: the driver going on the next stint was waiting in full Nomex with the cans, the driver coming off a stint jumped out of the car and held the extinguisher. Everybody else already knew what their job was and waited for refueling to finish. We kept the tank close to full (that damn Civic fuel starves in hard corners under 3/8 tank) so each stop was generally about 4-5 gallons, it took maybe 60 seconds to refuel including getting the first driver out.
Then the new driver jumped in the car, the other crew members did their jobs as in: helped the driver strap in, did tire pressures, fluid checks etc and then the driver took off again. We could turn the car around in 3-4 minutes.
I agree the "rating" is what matters more than reality. The only reason i bother to point it out here is b/c this jug likely carries a notable speed advantage over what everyone else will bring. If it is also rated/listed as 5.25gal people will happily point out that those high flow jugs that team in 2nd place are using are not legal. We all know how teams doing will start paying close attention to the team ahead of them.
I just hate to see anyone invest in 5.25 jugs only to learn their money is wasted.
junkyard, we use the same strategy as you guys (as does nearly every team I know, nothing new there). We were just slower overall. Our radio (earpieces didn't always work) and camera (tapes and batt chage required pulling the mount) setups were both pretty slow on pits...
Still, to get the ~8gal we needed in took us 2.5-3min with unmodified cans, while another team next to us did that in 30sec with a fuel rig, so there's a lap right there every pit stop on fueling alone. I understand the guys wanting to spend time/$$ on fueling equipment, but I like the new rule.
Obviously not breaking/no penalties is the big time loss area, but those things are tough to predict unlike fueling, which is guaranteed time loss/gain depending on your setup. Hence people dissecting this rule change.
The VP jugs are listed as 5 gallon jugs, but the description says "Holds over 5 gallons of fuel". That's within the rules. Do I want to try and fudge another 1/4 gallon? No, but I like those jugs because they empty REALLY fast.
So I guess when a newly joined member with 3 posts comes on and suggests an out of the blue rule change.....we'd better listen, cos they obviously know something we don't!
perhaps we need a list of approved cars to bring to Lemons......
I would be very surprised if Jay updated the fueling regulations based on such a recent post in the forums.
I think we can all assume this decision was made long before my post.
On the other hand, if Lemons organizers do react this quickly to forum suggestions, may I also state the following:
1. The Autobahn cop car girls should be hired for every event.
2. Free pizza and beer on Saturday night.
3. Towing compensation based on mileage.
Discuss...
(The above suggestions are not serious...in fact just ignore this post and any subsequent ones)
-Dave
I've always liked you Dave!
Proper prep to keep the car turning laps is the #1 key to finishing well, not dump cans! You can't turn laps when you are fixing some stupid thing or other that should have been done at home. ....
Completely agree with you. The problem is that when multiple teams get it right, the ones with nice rigs get ahead.That leads to anyone wanting a shot at the win to buy rigs too.
At the last race, we were a country mile down the road going 10 mph out to our paddock spot, then sat there filling with 5 gallon jugs. Our car and drivers were clean and reliable. We would lose a few laps every single pit stop to some up close with rigs. Not whining, thats just the way it was set up.
I support the 5 gallon jug rule.
Considering the reputation of never having a single fire in the pits. I would support a driver change during fueling, but I know opinions are divided on that too.
Ok here's my gripe about this rule. My team uses a 100 gallon, pick up bed mounted, diesel tank that is used to fill up tractors.
This works great for the some of the races where everyone fuels at their pit spot. But some of the tracks have one location for re-fueling, and you have to bring your fueling (5 gallon jugs) to the fueling area, and it has to be mobile, since you get assigned one of 4-6 parking spots-RANDOMLY. So this wouldn't work.
This rule was made to save people money right?
No I'm guessing the rule change was made to standardize and equalize the fueling process and time penalty for every team. And it works regardless of where the cars refuel in relation to the cold pit areas.
Well i know that the fuel pumps at the track will fill up a car one hell of a lot faster than using 5 gallon jugs
Not true. Modified high flow jugs will fuel a car much faster than standard fuel pumps. This is the next big technical discussion you are going to see, how to modify fuel jugs to flow as fast as possible. Many teams at the Nov Les Crap Roulez were using modified 5 gallon jugs and could dump 15-20 gallons into a car in a couple minutes.
Why not make it to where if you have a fuel rig you must state so while going through tech so it can also be inspected for safety. This would solve all the problems.
This means we have to get the lawyers/insurance guys involved. No way do we want that to happen. Your fueling rig will have a dry break connector on it and will cost $5000. So this is your argument for the grass roots team. Everyone uses the same $10-30 fuel jugs, and the smart ones will add an extra $20 in modification parts.
Port matched fuel jugs for Lemons! Brilliant!!!!
So we can modify the fuel jugs then? Also isn't Jay already assuming responsibility, much like inspecting fuel rigs, by inspecting our cars, driving suits, helmets, etc..?
So we can modify the fuel jugs then? Also isn't Jay already assuming responsibility, much like inspecting fuel rigs, by inspecting our cars, driving suits, helmets, etc..?
There has not been any official word on the allowance of modifications for fuel jugs. The closest I've seen was an offline discussion around a specific modification someone asked about and Jay's answer was NO. So I would assume unmodified is the rule unless you see otherwise.
The only mod on my fuel jug is the end of the fill hose so it actually fits into the filler neck of the car!
KT
I think this rule is like all rules regarding racing, and will make everything more expensive for everyone concerned. We tried with the crappy 5 gallon dump cans with no proper venting and 5+ minutes of glug- glug -glug. Arms are ready to fall off after fueling 3 cans. We came up with a hand cranked rig made out of old garbage I had laying around. Guess that is relegated back to the junk it was before.
Many teams (like the B-team for instance) spent the meager amount of money on a hand cranked fuel rig that is much safer than the jugs. They told me this almost a year ago while (complaining) at the chump car race at the streets. Now they too are being punished for doing the right thing for the right reason. In the scheme of things a fuel rig is a tiny part of the cost of going racing (we spent over a grand is fuel at thunderhill, between tow rig and race car), what is $40 for a couple of pieces of 2" hose.
There are not all that many teams than are actually racing for the win anyway. 80% of the cars out there are never going to be running for the win, even if they had F1 fuel rigs. This shit is supposed to be fun and the more clever you can be to make your heap of shit go and keep going (while looking like absolute garbage) the more kudos for you.
Winging it wrote:So we can modify the fuel jugs then? Also isn't Jay already assuming responsibility, much like inspecting fuel rigs, by inspecting our cars, driving suits, helmets, etc..?
There has not been any official word on the allowance of modifications for fuel jugs. The closest I've seen was an offline discussion around a specific modification someone asked about and Jay's answer was NO. So I would assume unmodified is the rule unless you see otherwise.
The word tht leads towards modification is SCCA as many teams run with modified(nothing crazy like what brought this change around) 5 gallon cans for enduro races.
I specifically asked Nick about the Hunsaker 5-gallon fuel jug, like this:
Hi Nick,
I have attached a picture of a Hunsaker 5-gallon fuel jug. Does this comply with the new 2011 Lemons fueling rules? I do not know if it has any DOT, SCCA or NASA markings on it, but then I have several very conventional 5-gallon fuel jugs that are not marked with DOT, SCCA or NASA. I know that the larger, 11-gallon Hunsaker jugs are marked "SCORE approved, ASA approved."
Thanks,
Greg Smith
Team Los Cerdos Voladores
Corona, California
...and today I received his reply:
Hi, Greg--
Yeah, that unit is fine--we're trying to avoid homemade stuff, buckets o' gas, etc.
Cheers,
Nick
So, Nick's reply is remarkably similar to Jay's purported statement on the topic. Does that help? I think so.
I specifically asked Nick about the Hunsaker 5-gallon fuel jug, like this:
http://www.superduty-hq.com/hunsaker5gallonfueljug.aspx
"5 Gallon can actually hold 6 gallons"
Personally, I don't care. I've been using the standard Scribner style 5-gal fuel jugs the whole time. Yes, they're slow. Yes, they do leak a little while refilling (which is why I normally have the driver getting out of the car doing the refueling, so the next driver is not in the car potentially covered with fuel). But they have been good enough to finish in the top ten twice, and it'll be a cold day in hell when we get first place, so I'm not worried.
Winging it wrote:So we can modify the fuel jugs then? Also isn't Jay already assuming responsibility, much like inspecting fuel rigs, by inspecting our cars, driving suits, helmets, etc..?
There has not been any official word on the allowance of modifications for fuel jugs. The closest I've seen was an offline discussion around a specific modification someone asked about and Jay's answer was NO. So I would assume unmodified is the rule unless you see otherwise.
Yeah thats what I thought but mackwagon was throwing "WE" around a lot in his last statement about the fuel rigs so I just assumed he was speaking on behalf of the Lemons tech team.
widgetsltd wrote:I specifically asked Nick about the Hunsaker 5-gallon fuel jug, like this:
http://www.superduty-hq.com/hunsaker5gallonfueljug.aspx
"5 Gallon can actually hold 6 gallons"
Personally, I don't care. I've been using the standard Scribner style 5-gal fuel jugs the whole time. Yes, they're slow. Yes, they do leak a little while refilling (which is why I normally have the driver getting out of the car doing the refueling, so the next driver is not in the car potentially covered with fuel). But they have been good enough to finish in the top ten twice, and it'll be a cold day in hell when we get first place, so I'm not worried.
"Easy handling for all genders"
70 bucks?! Really?!
Yes, they do leak a little while refilling (which is why I normally have the driver getting out of the car doing the refueling, so the next driver is not in the car potentially covered with fuel).
This is exactly why I do the same thing. I don't want to put a fuel soaked meat-wick into the car and out on the track. Also, having the outgoing driver fuel keeps him focused for a few more minutes before he starts high five-ing and talking a hundred miles an hour about his awesome stint.
When they hold the extinguisher it's too easy to get distracted and not pay attention.
keeps him focused for a few more minutes before he starts high five-ing and talking a hundred miles an hour about his awesome stint.
One of my drivers was so stoked up after his stint, he didn't think to tell me I was going out for the final stint with metal-on-metal brake pads.
KT
What are you doing using the brakes anyway?
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → Suggested rule change concerning fueling