1 (edited by gunn 2010-12-18 09:25 PM)

Topic: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Hi:
Two years ago, I told my buddy that I wanted to Race Lemons or "anything but Vegas" for my bachelor party. We ended up going to Vegas. I just acquired a Lemons candidate car -- 1995 Ford Thunderbird "scratch and dent" edition so it's payback time. While some of my friends have track experience, we're pretty much going to be rollin' an all-rookie team.

I've gone through the rulebook and have started in on the car. Yes, I will document everything just to prove how crappy a car it is.

As a starting point, would you guys mind answering a few questions?

We're targetting the August thunderhill race so that will give us plenty of time to get ready.

Q: I went ahead and setup a user acct for the entry system but I need to go ahead and plan my theme/concept before registering for an event, right?

Q: From the other replies in other noob threads I've read here, it sounds like "go-faster" bits are discouraged (increases scrutiny at tech inspection) and we should be spending our bucks on reliablity/safety components, right?

I'll ask my other questions in the tech section.
Thanks again guys and I look forward to seeing you at the track (if you select us, of course).
Regards,
-g

PS. One last question. Is there a particular reason why the font size by default is like microfiche? It looks "normal" in the individual thread view but on the index screens I have to bump up IE8 to 150% just to see what the hell I'm writing.

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

2 (edited by EyeMWing 2010-12-18 09:35 PM)

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

1) Don't bother registering for an event at all until the car starts, moves, and has a killswitch and cage. Building up that first car will take WAY more time than you think it will, and the last thing you need before your first event is to be paid up and unprepared. If you blow the registration deadline, you blow the registration deadline. It may also happen that you have everything in order long before the August event - it'll give you the flexibility to pick up an earlier race.

2) You're correct. Go-faster bits are discouraged. Spend the money on safety. The most important thing you can do with that urge to put shiny new parts on is the brakes, which count as safety equipment. Brake pads, bigger rotors, bigger and better calipers, anything that will make the car stop faster.

3) The font size here sucks because you're using IE. Firefox is unaffected.

Welcome aboard.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Where are you located?

Start building.
Get the cage in.
Make the car reliable.

Look forward to racing with you!

TH 2009- 40th ~ SP 2010- 13th Class Bad win!! TH 2010- 17th ~TH 2010- 16th  SP 2011- 20th ~ RF 2011- 13th Least Horrible Yank Tank ~ TH 2011- 79th
SP 2011- 105th ~ SP 2012- 119th ~ SP 2013- 139th ~ BW 2013- 17th
Follow Filthy on Facebook: Flailing Lizard Motorsports

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Go-faster bits are encouraged if they come in a form that is likely to severely compromise engine reliability.  Ghetto forced-induction is a perennial crowd-pleaser.

Or maybe your T-bird is already a Super Coupe?

Former chief proprietor and lead bad idea generator of Binford "More Power" Racing, 2010-2013: humbly self-proclaimed the best Chevy Beretta in Lemons history.

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

95 thunderbird? V8? or 6? you're probably pretty safe from scrutiny as there's a particularly well-known Mark VIII with the DOHC motor that races, and while that thing is insanely fast, it's gone through 3 engines, and massive amounts of what now might be illegal weight reduction. Get the interior stripped, get a NICE cage and a racing seat/belts/firebottle put in, and wire up your kill switch. Update the brakes as best you can, then get some shakedown runs done before you go playing with it too much. if the car seems solid after the shakedowns, start thinking of what kinda parade float you want to turn it into. I'd say enter the soonest, closest race you can manage as soon as the car's done, as we're all pretty sure you'll want more. smile

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

parade float

Essential.


KT

TH 2009- 40th ~ SP 2010- 13th Class Bad win!! TH 2010- 17th ~TH 2010- 16th  SP 2011- 20th ~ RF 2011- 13th Least Horrible Yank Tank ~ TH 2011- 79th
SP 2011- 105th ~ SP 2012- 119th ~ SP 2013- 139th ~ BW 2013- 17th
Follow Filthy on Facebook: Flailing Lizard Motorsports

7 (edited by gunn 2010-12-18 11:29 PM)

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Haha,
Thanks guys. I have a few ideas along the "beaver racers + bark car" from the rule guide.

It's the 3.8L V6 pumping which pumped a whopping 140HP when it rolled off the line 15 years ago.. god knows what i does now. I'm glad to hear that my car should be pretty safe from scrutiny. I'm in SF and my team is based all around the Bay Area.

BTW, how common is it to find all sorts of coins from 1995 embedded in various parts of the car? I must have made a $2.50 between the lose and embedded change from this car (alongside 3Lbs of SALT! the previous owner had spilled between the trunk and the rear seat).

I need to see if I can get over-sized rotors (not sure what brake bits I can borrow up the ford food chain).

Three more questions (if you guys don't mind). I've still got a bunch of reading & searching to do in the tech section but these are more generalized:

1) How many rims/tires spares should I prep for the race? 2? 4? more?

2) How realistic would it be to keep this car "street legal"? Provided I don't muck around with the intake/exhaust and leave the factory seat belts, is this even viable?

3) A transmission cooler, while being relatively cheap, will cut into my $500 budget but the a tranny temp sensor won't, right? By my estimation, my vehicles weak link is its original AT tranny. This is the first place I plan to spend cash that cuts into my $500 budget. Any thoughts?

Thanks again,
-g

PS. Chrome also works well in non-microfiche mode. Damn IE.

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Money you find in the car offsets the purchase price in the same way as selling off parts. Make sure to document it.

1) 2 sets is usually plenty. You probably won't change tires (especially with a RWD configuration) - but spares are kind of necessary. Even a set of aggressive dry tires and a set of all-seasons is a good idea. Our 2010 tire strategy involved 8 performance tires and 4 all-seasons. Burned 2 performance tires at the first race (we ran all-seasons on the rear for that race, and they looked brand new at the end), 5 more at the second, along with all 4 all-seasons.

2) It's totally viable. A lot of teams do it. There have even been a few cars with full interiors (an S-Class and a Quattroporte no less)

3) The weak link is generally the transmission, yes. There are plenty of transmission coolers out there for peanuts ($50 for 26,000lb GVW) - and if you can't make room in the budget for that, you can always use the car's factory A/C condensor with a little creative plumbing. I don't know whether a sensor would count against the budget, or whether it would fall under the driver information exemption.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

V6? heh, last i heard, those 4-speed autos are larger than the 3.8L V6s they were attached to. I have driven an older V6 like yours, and based on my experience, you should let the transmission do it's job more than the motor. Standing on that gas pedal couldn't make it go any faster than part-throttle, and allowing the tranny to shift when it wanted. I personally couldn't see you having a cheater car no matter what you spent if that OEM drivetrain stays in it.

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

...That probably wasn't salt.


KT

TH 2009- 40th ~ SP 2010- 13th Class Bad win!! TH 2010- 17th ~TH 2010- 16th  SP 2011- 20th ~ RF 2011- 13th Least Horrible Yank Tank ~ TH 2011- 79th
SP 2011- 105th ~ SP 2012- 119th ~ SP 2013- 139th ~ BW 2013- 17th
Follow Filthy on Facebook: Flailing Lizard Motorsports

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

EyeMWing wrote:

1) Brake pads, bigger rotors, bigger and better calipers, anything that will make the car stop faster.

Only better tires will make the car stop any faster.  Those brake upgrades are to make the car stop RELIABLY throughout the race without fading, melting or catching on fire.  (though I suppose it could be said that upgraded brakes working within a proper operating temperature range WILL stop faster than stock brakes at 2000 degrees)

Gunn, it sounds like you've got the right idea.  DD the car is a good idea, but don't fall into the trap of thinking that "I've daily driven it for 6 months, so it's ready to race."  DO some track testing to shake down the car in an actual racing environment.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

gunn wrote:

We're targetting the August thunderhill race so that will give us plenty of time to get ready.

Like stated previously, get the car running and the cage and seats in. See where that puts you in relation to the race dates in Nor Cal/Nevada. The march Infineon race is doable, but you'll have to get that car running before the Jan 15th date to have some confidence you'd make the race.

gunn wrote:

Q: I went ahead and setup a user acct for the entry system but I need to go ahead and plan my theme/concept before registering for an event, right?

Think about the theme constantly. Look at all that stuff happening around you on a daily basis, the movie you just saw, the people commuting on 880 next to you. Plenty of inspiration.

Then get the car running, seat and belts and other required stuff in place and working. Check the kill switch.

Then take the car to a autocross and push is hard to see if it runs under hard load.

Then take your car and drivers to a track day or two. If you are all rookies, talk to the promoter and see if you can pay for the novice and mid groups and then rotate two drivers in each group, then you'll all get about 2 sessions each. This will give you confidence in the reliability of the car, and get you some track time.

Think about spare parts you'll need.

gunn wrote:

Q: From the other replies in other noob threads I've read here, it sounds like "go-faster" bits are discouraged (increases scrutiny at tech inspection) and we should be spending our bucks on reliability/safety components, right?

No, go fast bits that are bought raise your exposure to scrutiny from the judges. Junkyard (JY) engineering and fabrication is encouraged. Cutting edge - whack job concepts are encouraged. But have receipts for the less than $500 total cost. A good example of this is to find the same size coil springs from a heavier vehicle in the JY and then cut them down a little to make them even stiffer. This will cost you about $40 total or less if you go on a half price day, or even less if you can find some ford shop that has old springs that they'll sell you for $1 each.

Dudes Ex Machina: https://www.facebook.com/dudesexmachina

?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

gunn wrote:

I'm in SF and my team is based all around the Bay Area.

Welcome! My team (Jaywatch) and another (to-be-named) are down in Mountain View (virtually across the street from each other).  If you need any hands-on help let me know!

Hella Shitty Racing Goin' for Broken '10, Arse-Sweat '10, Arse-Freeze '10, Sears Pointless '11, Skankaway '11, Arse-Freeze '11, Arse-Sweat '12, Sears Pointless '13, Arse-Sweat '13, Northworst '13, Vodden '13, Pointless '14, Button Turrible '14, Arse-Freeze 2014,  Sears Pointless 2015, Arse Sweat 2015

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

With an underpowered heavy pig of a car (no offense intended)  you mus get as much weight out of it as possible.  Read the new rules that require door SKINS and full hood.  Lose the trunklid, you could even cut the whole roof off, since it will be caged anyway.

It will accelerated, turn and stop better.  You can turn the scrap in for $ to offset your new shocks or whatever stuff you may need.

Best of luck.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

those T birds were pretty torquey....so it will be decent around the track once you get it light as possible.....  A couple issues I find hurt new teams:

1:  HEAT...as in overheated engine, transmission & brakes....since its an auto you will need a tranny cooler!!!!
2:  whiz bang go fast parts....as in DON'T DO IT...just make the car stock and reliable..you will gain way more time by better driving than any go fast part!!!! 
3:  Penalties during the race....this is a killer....drive within YOUR limits and stay on track!!!  Don't worry about getting passed....there are far faster cars with MUCH more experienced drivers....even "slow" cars that stay on track can be top 10 finishers!

1st thing to do is get the car running reliably so you can see what else (there will be lots) needs to be fixed.....once it runs...then get all the safety done.....DO NOT scrimp on brakes.....get race pads, fluid and new lines (I like braided steel)....get at least 6 wheels-tires mounted with good tires (Falken Azenis K and Dunlop Direeza are top choices)....

2nd is TEST THE CAR ON TRACK...if your team has never driven on track before...go to a DE and get real instruction.....far too many teams don't test the car at speed and break down right away...this is not fun!!!  Testing at the track you intend on racing is a very good idea too

Your lucky you are in Norcal-Bay Area...there are PLENTY of local teams to point you in the right direction!!!

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

"Those T birds" have exactly the same powertrain as a Crown Vic. And we all know how well those do in Lemons.

Official photographer/Team Police Brutality|Speedycop & the Gang
Lackey-mechanic-whatever/NSF Racing
Sycophant/Judge Phil, Jay Lamm, Kim Harmon
Galaxie Driver/not Parnelli Jones

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

ronman wrote:

"Those T birds" have exactly the same powertrain as a Crown Vic. And we all know how well those do in Lemons.

...except they're running the crappy 3.8L V6 instead of the paragon of reliability 4.6 mod motor.

18 (edited by gunn 2010-12-20 09:03 PM)

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Thanks for the encouragement guys.
After seeing some pics, I was thinking that we will lose the trunk come race time -- esp if I can figure out how to build an array of transmission coolers back there (I saw a awesome array of transmission cools w/ some kind of secondary pressurization system in a pic here that I need to PM for more details; I'm hoping they will give up details). It's good to know that such a mod (trunk removal) is legal.

As for brakes, I just learned that the TBird has a devout following of enthusiasts at TCCoA. I guess this proves there are car nuts for EVERY car out there.
I now have a fairly serious checklist of projects to tackle including:
a) They discuss some tranny mods called "JMOD" (which will be a somewhat intensive project for my skill set)

b) Apparently, there's a well debugged mod to use Mustang calipers and brackets to upgrade the Tbird's front brakes. You get 50% larger pads and 2-pot calipers (vs. the original 1piston ones) for a decent price -- even cheaper if I find a 99-04 mustang owner who just upgraded and wants to sell his old bits. I have a plan and all I need to do is select some pads & rotors (Thunderbird Rotors, Mustang Pads).

I haven't even thought about suspension yet.

In other ghetto engineering thoughts....
Q: Is there any reason why I couldn't run the heater FULL blast and then vent all the ducting outside the cabin? This would essentially give me a second coolant radiator for the price of a little duct-work, right?

@rdoherty: Thanks for the offer -- the car will likely split its time between SF and WIllow Glen (San Jose) as my friend and first co-team member tear into this car.

It's nice to see that everyone is friendly and welcoming here.

Regards,
-g


PS. It looked like salt and the substance had rusted one of the bolts holding the rear seat on good. This car was originally from NJ so that kinda makes sense. If I had found 5Lbs of crystal meth in the backseat, this car would have been "free" (although getting enough buyers willing to sign bills of sale might have been tough).

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Serj wrote:
ronman wrote:

"Those T birds" have exactly the same powertrain as a Crown Vic. And we all know how well those do in Lemons.

...except they're running the crappy 3.8L V6 instead of the paragon of reliability 4.6 mod motor.

Touche, my friend. I must've overlooked that particular nugget of wisdom...

Official photographer/Team Police Brutality|Speedycop & the Gang
Lackey-mechanic-whatever/NSF Racing
Sycophant/Judge Phil, Jay Lamm, Kim Harmon
Galaxie Driver/not Parnelli Jones

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

gunn wrote:

In other ghetto engineering thoughts....
Q: Is there any reason why I couldn't run the heater FULL blast and then vent all the ducting outside the cabin? This would essentially give me a second coolant radiator for the price of a little duct-work, right?

Regards,
-g

Yes, you can use the heater system as an auxillary radiator.  My team did this on our neon.  You can find the parts to do this in the heat & A/C aisle at the Home Depot...

Team Co-Craptain, Los Cerdos Voladores
Plymouth Neon
Yeah, we're horrible...but we're LEAST Horrible

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Almost ALL early British cars had the heater wired so that with the knob IN it was on, and the knob pulled out it was off - this should give you an idea how old that method is :-)

Re: Just acquired my LeMon's Candidate....

Why run a mess of transmission coolers in your trunk when you can just adapt your A/C condensor into a super-big-gas transmission cooler?