1 (edited by Grant 2010-12-20 08:28 AM)

Topic: Why not to build a Z32

Among the many other reasons, I have two words not often mentioned here: Oil starvation.

Seriously, these things starve everywhere. We have our oil pressure gauge within range of our camera, and it drops like a rock (to 20 psi) on right-handers. It drops on left-handers too, but not nearly as badly; maybe to about 45 psi. This is with cut springs, mad weight reduction and Star Specs, although it drops with so little gees I don't think lesser tires will save you (I think we'll be on V12 Evos for the race).

Its really crazy how fast the pressure drops. Its like an inverse steering angle gauge on hard rights.

Over-filling helps a bit, but not much; maybe it only drops to 30 psi on rights. Given how small the oil capacity is, I was afraid to go much more than a quart over.

I pulled the 3-quart manual-valve Accusump off of one of my other cars. It seems to have mitigated the issue, although it still hits 40 psi sometimes. We don't have time to modify the pan or anything like that for the PBIR race, so unless we can find a cheap 'sump solution or sell a bunch more crap we'll be way over budget for PBIR.

Hell I'm not even giving it good chances to survive with the Accusump. 40 psi a few times a lap for 24 hours? I guess we'll have to keep the revs down unless we're going straight.

Just a warning,
Grant
Team Kamikaze

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Z32 as in 300zx?

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

3 (edited by Grant 2010-12-20 08:26 AM)

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Yes. Ours is a '90 (which I believe had a larger oil pan) VG30DE.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

We wish we could get 45 psig when the car is going straight, but at least the pressure is steady.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

With the stock gauge? Those are notoriously inaccurate.

We get 80 psi in the straights with an Autometer gauge, although we have a ridiculously oversized oil cooler.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Datsun-Nissan.html

I've looked into this for our BMW because certain turns cause the same issue. Several Spec E30 guys swear by these.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

This is a known issue...rumor has it when Nissan initially tested this car at speed it was only one direction (left) on an oval.
I remember watching a Japanese hi-perf program showcasing a guy who had to run separate oil lines outside of one side
of the block and into the other side to keep the oil pressure up on right-handers.(or something to that effect).
Apparently it was a pain but it did work.

I'll see if I can find the vid.


-Dave

Re: Why not to build a Z32

welcome to the club.......Porsche 924-944-928's also are well known to starve out in corners....  There must be some type of baffle you can install to make things better.....since there are plenty of Z's that race and live?

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

9 (edited by EriktheAwful 2010-12-20 07:46 PM)

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Cut your own scraper out of aluminum sheet. Leave about 1/16"-1/8" between the scraper and the crank throws and install it on the ascending side. That's my plan on our new motor.

Edit:
Or for real LeMon flavor, make it out of beer cans.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

We run the same VG30DE in our 95 J30 with the stock temp gauge and oil light.
The only thing noticed (in our second race)was the PCV issue, if there is time before the PBIR race I will get a gauge to see whats going on.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

11 (edited by Grant 2010-12-21 07:06 AM)

Re: Why not to build a Z32

We actually did make our own scraper when we were in the bottom end replacing the bearings. Its not as nice as I-J's piece, which has some directional screening in it. I also clayed the oil pickup to get it exactly 1/4" from the bottom of the pan. We figured oil starvation would be an issue, we just never guessed how much of an issue...

The reason the scrapers work so well on BMWs is because the slant of the motor is the big problem; oil tries to climb up the side when turning left. The I-J scraper has a trap-door setup that allows oil to drain back the right side of the block, but not climb up it. Info is here:
http://www.crank-scrapers.com/bmw.html

Team Infinniti, we stuck freeze plugs in the side PCV ports, and only use the ones on the front of the intake valve covers. No problems there. We've got a few knowledgeable Z32 people helping us (and one on our team), so that was at the top of the list.

I wonder if the J30 has a different oil pan? This is ours:
http://diy.icydesigns.com/i/183-rebuild_13.jpg

I think it really needs a trap-door in the kickout.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

I never had the intake off let alone looked at our motor from that angle, I do have the car on the lift right now, I will give it a looksie.

We raced hard with  Schumacher Taxi at Sebring and consumed 2-2.5 qts of oil each fuel stop(1:40)... We had no Z32 helpers to warn us about the PCV , only after the race did a member of team Blacksheep mention the known PCV issues may be our problem, so it was researched and I came up with a reroute that hopefully works at PBIR, if it does I will post it on the Z32 forums with pics.

Even with 2 qts down the factory oil light never flickered and until now I was blissfully unaware of right hand starvation issues, I will run the car 1 qt overfill with crossed fingers.
I did suspect we had added lower end wear as the engine has a brief and gentle cold start rattle it never had before but had attributed it to running it low every stint.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Team Infiniti,

It looks like our oil pans are very different:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OIL-PAN- … 0460646080

The Z32's capacity is 4.1 quarts.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

I'm no expert, but I thought crank scrapers were more to prevent power loss than to maintain oil pressure?  IOW, a crank scraper isn't designed to really act as a baffle, though I'm sure it couldn't hurt.

Our car ('89 Prelude) has starvation issues (so we are told) in long left handers, but since CMP only has one short left, we haven't had any issues. 

When we built the car we added a DIY baffle using a cardboard template and some scrap sheet metal so I guess we'll see how well it works with PBIR's long right handers.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

15 (edited by Team Infinniti 2010-12-21 05:50 PM)

Re: Why not to build a Z32

I looked and saw the difference but now that you have thrown the starvation hand down I am getting scared or at least aware of things I should have been paying attention to..

I simply ASSumed the entire car was over engineered...

BTW what does a Lemons prepped Z32 weigh? We are under 3000lbs but it was a serious task to do so.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Why not to build a Z32

VKZ24 wrote:

I'm no expert, but I thought crank scrapers were more to prevent power loss than to maintain oil pressure?  IOW, a crank scraper isn't designed to really act as a baffle, though I'm sure it couldn't hurt.

E30 BMW scrapers often include a baffle to keep oil from climbing up the side of the block.

Other crank scrapers work by removing oil from the windage cloud and returning it to the sump. This should lessen oil starvation.

Team Infinniti, our car is, uh, light wink Quite a bit under 3,000 lbs, although I wouldn't expect any normal Z32 build to be as light as ours. It may get a zillion penalty laps, but you'll see it at PBIR.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

This is Lemons! Put lucas oil stabilizer in it and see what happens.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Dry Sump system... that's within budget right? big_smile

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Why not to build a Z32

It's within budget if the scavenge pump is your neighbor's old sump pump w/ a bad float switch, hardwired to a 120VAC inverter.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

Re: Why not to build a Z32

killerken53 wrote:

This is Lemons! Put lucas oil stabilizer in it and see what happens.

Heh, well its an awfully big investment in time and money to show up with a setup you know is going to explode in short order. I'd rather take some penalty laps and keep the Accusump.

PBIR has a seven-ish second right-hand carousel.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Due to this thread I just put my old dirt car oil gauge/20psi light combo in the J30, PBIR will be our test to see if the VG30DE in a J car suffers from the same Z32 issues.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

22 (edited by Grant 2010-12-25 08:46 PM)

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Team Infinniti,

What is your tire setup and camber?

With cut springs on the Z, it doesn't get much body roll. They come with pretty beefy sway bars stock, and it ended up around -2 camber. With a 2,500 lb dry weight, it makes a lot of grip; more than some proper race cars. It could make more if we'd done anything to make camber adjustable, but we've run out of time. I expect it won't make quite as much on V12 Evos as it did on Star Specs, of course.

A pre-theme pic:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5047/5275303561_b6b70022e2_z.jpg

You should be able to replicate the starvation on the street pretty easily. Our car isn't street legal, but we take it out around the shop where its stored without any issue. Its hard to replicate left-hand starvation there, but right-hand stuff is easy.

23 (edited by Team Infinniti 2010-12-25 09:12 PM)

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Yikes, that's one naked z32!

We have 2deg neg camber and that was a struggle,we just noticed it killed our rear upper bushings(no time to fix)
stock bars, cut stock springs, moderate body roll with 16 inch used star specs.

Right now the car has 4 qts in it, I will go zooming around the shop monday night and see if the new gauge picks up anything.

Here is all I found for track action/trim pics of the j30  @ .45 and 1.55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyEU8DfAAlU

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Cool.

One of our team members is a professional fabricator, and he had us replace the standard Autometer oil pressure gauge line with a -4 AN. He says this makes it react much more quickly, allowing you to see quicker pressure movements.

When I get home I'll upload a video of our testing without the Accusump. With YouTube's 1080p compression you can make out the needle on the gauge.

The Z has adjustable camber in the rear, so we were able to get what seems to be plenty. The front could use some more, but it wasn't worth messing with.

Re: Why not to build a Z32

Old fire extinguisher = new Lemons price accusump. Air-over oil, inlet/outlet at the bottom instead of spring loaded. Sure, it's not an accusump, but it is effective.