• From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
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Topic: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Think this way:  Stock tank in stock location or high quality fuel cell that is well engineered and well installed...   


    I've had a ton of e-mails in the last few days

   One went something like this:

       We have this cell that we need to install, its an aluminum baffled unit with no names or info on it, can we install it like so???       The like so isn't important here...  I asked them to send pics of the cell and a diagram of the install  ( a standard reply on my part: take note)    and noted that a baffled tank without a bladder of some sort isn't a fuel cell.  Does it have a bladder?       

   Nope, no bladder.         I replied, then you don't have a fuel cell, just a tank, and not being a stock tank, it won't fly.            With no mfg, no bladder, no nothing...all they have is a random tank welded up by some random guy.  It is not going to run in Lemons. 

     Similarly:   a car showed up at my shop for a roll cage (a very cool car)  and it had a stock tank from a completely different car mounted in a sorta stock location..   nope, won't fly...  need the stock tank in stock location or a cell....     


      Its pretty simple.        But If you have questions, please ask before spending time and money on crap that won't pass tech..


   -John

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  • Baron
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Is this considered a cell ?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-293220-S/

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  • From: Davis, Ca
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Baron wrote:

Is this considered a cell ?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-293220-S/

If it has an inner plastic or rubber liner, yes.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Evil Genius wrote:
Baron wrote:

Is this considered a cell ?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-293220-S/

If it has an inner plastic or rubber liner, yes.

It doesnt say anythihng about that on the page. So this is a no-go?

What about a poly cell?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-290108/

Team Lost in the Dark
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  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Baron wrote:
Evil Genius wrote:
Baron wrote:

Is this considered a cell ?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-293220-S/

If it has an inner plastic or rubber liner, yes.

It doesnt say anythihng about that on the page. So this is a no-go?

What about a poly cell?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-290108/

In a can and with a metal bulkhead between it and the driver, yes.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Evil Genius wrote:
Baron wrote:
Evil Genius wrote:

If it has an inner plastic or rubber liner, yes.

It doesnt say anythihng about that on the page. So this is a no-go?

What about a poly cell?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-290108/

In a can and with a metal bulkhead between it and the driver, yes.

so that first one is bunk, and not a fuel cell as it is advertised. Dirty bastards at Summit.


John, can you possibly put together a checklist of things to look for in one cognitive post? As we all know, every different sanctioning body seems to have thier own version of what a fuel cell actually is. NHRA is rather lax on what they will allow, some series only allows FIA rated. Examples (other than the extra pricey FIA certed ones, obv.) would be very handy.

Team Lost in the Dark
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2012 Gulf region champs
  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Baron wrote:
Evil Genius wrote:
Baron wrote:

It doesnt say anythihng about that on the page. So this is a no-go?

What about a poly cell?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-290108/

In a can and with a metal bulkhead between it and the driver, yes.

so that first one is bunk, and not a fuel cell as it is advertised. Dirty bastards at Summit.


John, can you possibly put together a checklist of things to look for in one cognitive post? As we all know, every different sanctioning body seems to have thier own version of what a fuel cell actually is. NHRA is rather lax on what they will allow, some series only allows FIA rated. Examples (other than the extra pricey FIA certed ones, obv.) would be very handy.

I will do so ASAP, time constrains me right now, give me a day or two

  -John

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  • From: Davis, Ca
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

A quick answer would be:  Enough already, get the damn FIA  cell and be done with it....  that is your easiest way through tech, and for many of the unholy contraptions that you freakgineers come up with it is the only solution...     

-John

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  • From: Baltimore, MD
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

If you need a fuel cell, you may as well stump up the cash for an FIA cell. It's an investment - it's the single most portable piece of safety gear on the list. When you're done with your current car, take it out and put it in the next one. They don't go bad. If you chew up the foam, you can just order more from the manufacturer.

Even seats aren't that straightforward.

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  • JThw8
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

The investment in a good cell has become even more tolerable with the great rates Jay negotiated and posted in the store at
http://store.24hoursoflemons.com/catego … afety.fuel

Look at how these are constructed.  outer steel can, inner poly bladder, that is what you are looking for in a good cell.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5165/5274543460_4cc1b18ee4_m.jpg

If it is one layer, either just a steel/aluminum can or just a poly bladder its not enough, the 2 work together.  Summit and others sell similar without the FIA certs for cheaper, but with the deals in the store they aren't *much* cheaper.

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11 Reply by Crab Spirits (edited by Crab Spirits 2011-02-08 06:30 AM)

  • From: Romeoville, IL
  • Registered: 2009-12-12
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

FYI: The cheapest FIA cell I was able to find for our needs was the Fuel Safe Enduro.  The pricing on the cells in the Lemons store is crazyy good.

Just saying because price is the main reason behind many of these blunders (i.e. buying a tank you can't use to put in a stupid location). At least, it was for us.

Is there a stipulation on damaged cells? I came across many semi wadded ex-nascar cells, but didn't know if they would fly.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Crab Spirits wrote:

FYI: The cheapest FIA cell I was able to find for our needs was the Fuel Safe Enduro.  The pricing on the cells in the Lemons store is crazyy good.

Just saying because price is the main reason behind many of these blunders (i.e. buying a tank you can't use to put in a stupid location). At least, it was for us.

Is there a stipulation on damaged cells? I came across many semi wadded ex-nascar cells, but didn't know if they would fly.

The thing to remember with any used cell is the FIA cert does expire.  If you are using them in traditional areas Lemons still accepts them but if you want it in the cockpit area then it must be FIA (or did I see something in the rules that disallows any cockpit instal now?)

Id be real leery of a dented cell. At a minimum I'd want to put a new bladder in it.

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  • Registered: 2010-02-14
  • Posts: 577

Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

We looked at putting a fuel cell in our hatchback.

Option 1 - non FIA rated cell.  Cheaper but would require a bulkhead to be fabricated to isolate it from the cabin.  Plumbing modifications required due to a FI engine, causing warranty issues.

Option 2 - FIA rated cell.  Expensive but would not require a bulkhead.  Plumbing modifications required due to a FI engine, causing warranty issues and possible voiding of the FIA rating.

Option 3 - leave the stock tank in the stock location.  No tech issues, no work required.

We went with Option 3.

14 Reply by RobL (edited by RobL 2011-02-08 08:17 AM)

  • RobL
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

It's a freaking safety item!!!  Would you buy a discolored harness?

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
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We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
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  • From: 5,280 ft.
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

RobL wrote:

It's a freaking safety item!!!  Would you buy a discolored harness?

but it's only frayed a little bit!

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

and ....... if we use a HANS device with 3" belts they can be frayed up to an inch leaving the 2" minimum width that can be used with the HANS ........

[img] John knocking head on desk sayin' "I was talking about fuel cells, I was talking about fuel cells ...."[\img]

  • From: Davis, Ca
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Buzz Killington wrote:
RobL wrote:

It's a freaking safety item!!!  Would you buy a discolored harness?

but it's only frayed a little bit!

'fraid not.....

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18 Reply by Jer

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

When did these rules change?  Our tank is the first summit one I believe and was fine last year, properly caged and separated by steel from the passenger compartment.  Now we have to buy a new cell?  I must have missed that rules change...

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

No rule changes relating to fuel tanks/cells that I'm aware of.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Evil Genius wrote:

Nope, no bladder.         I replied, then you don't have a fuel cell, just a tank, and not being a stock tank, it won't fly.            With no mfg, no bladder, no nothing...all they have is a random tank welded up by some random guy.  It is not going to run in Lemons.

This is what changed.  Rule 3.25 which now only allows OE fuel tanks and aftermarket fuel cells.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Rob - as I read the rules I think their intent has always been to only allowed OE tanks or cells.  The addendum to 3.25 enhances the tank location and closes a loophole of installing "extra" tanks/cells to increase endurance.  3.25.3 is new but not related to tanks/cells.

In our hatchback it just wasn't worth the effort of installing a bulkhead and non-FIA rated cell or worth the expense of installing a rated cell without the bulkhead.  OE tank in OE location works just fine fine for us.  EEMMV.

22 Reply by RobL (edited by RobL 2011-02-08 11:40 AM)

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Up until recently (sometime in 2010), there were no rules on fuel sustems at all except for the non-leaking part.  You could have a fuel tank (not cell) but it had to be separated from the driver compartment by a metal bulkhead.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

ahhh I see.  Having been involved since early '10 I've only known the newerer, almost current, almost least non-current, second placed Rules to compare against the newest, most current, least non-current , first placed rules big_smile

  • From: Davis, Ca
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Jer wrote:

When did these rules change?  Our tank is the first summit one I believe and was fine last year, properly caged and separated by steel from the passenger compartment.  Now we have to buy a new cell?  I must have missed that rules change...

Is it a tank or a cell?   The rules state that tanks without bladders, etc are likely to fail tech... 


        If its just some welded up aluminum or steel tank that can split at the seams... it won't pass tech...

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25 Reply by RobL (edited by RobL 2011-02-08 01:46 PM)

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Doug I wrote:

ahhh I see.  Having been involved since early '10 I've only known the newerer, almost current, almost least non-current, second placed Rules to compare against the newest, most current, least non-current , first placed rules big_smile

Newbs...

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

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