Some clarification on fuel cell rules (Page 2 of 3)

That there's a cell... see the bladder!

John, it seems that your accounts abouve dont seem to agree with the rules. They do not define a cell the way you have, though they hint at what you have said. The problem is the wording. "considerably more likely to fail" does not exclude them from passing without the items mentioned. That points to those examples as suggestions, not requirements.

3.25: Fuel Tanks/Fuel Cells: All fuel systems, including OE fuel tanks and aftermarket fuel cells, must be sound and in good working order. Maximum allowed capacity is 24 gallons or less. Fuel tanks or cells must be completely behind, or completely in front of, the driver (unless OE parts in their OE locations). No second fuel tanks allowed (unless OE parts in their OE locations). 
3.25.1: Aftermarket Fuel Cells Versus OE Fuel Tanks. Fuel cells are allowed,but they are NOT mandatory. Don't make the rookie mistake of assuming that anything billed as a "fuel cell" is safer than a sound OE fuel tank.High-quality, professionally constructed, correctly installed fuel cells tend to be safer than OE tanks; cheap and/or poorly installed fuel cells tend to be less safe than OE tanks.
3.25.2: Fuel Cell Installation: If you decide to install a fuel cell, it must be securely mounted in a professional manner and must be installed in a safe location where it won't be damaged in an impact or drag on the ground if the car leaves the track. All aftermarket fuel components must use threaded fittings and appropriate hose types, and must include all appropriate racecar-quality vents, valves, and other safety features. Fuel-cell installations will be judged on their overall execution and apparent safety. Cars whose fuel cells do not feature internal foam, a puncture-resistant bladder, and/or metal encasement are considerably more likely to fail tech inspection.

It also says absolutely nothing about OEM tanks from a different vehicle being excluded. It aslo does not exclude a non OEM tank from use.

See how this gets pretty confusing?

I can see how it can be confusing if you are trying to Smokey Yunick the rules but if the rules tell me something is considerably likely to fail inspection Im going to think twice about it.  I thought enough about it when building my last car to send a link to the "cell" we were going to use to Jay and Nick to make sure and they recommended against it. 

There are 2 ways I REALLY dont want to die and burning is the first one...its worth a few extra bux to get a decent cell, if not an FIA one.  For the price of most of these aluminum "drag cells" you guys are posting I was able to get a non FIA metal encased bladder so its not like its a money issue.

OEM means Original Equipment Manufacture and ceases to be OEM when its not on the car it was manufactured for.  You aren't going to sell a 100 point restoration corvette with a chevette gas tank on the logic that its an OEM tank.  OEM only applies to the car in question not others.

This isnt rocket science

John, Im playing devils advicate here. Im only out the time I spent figting superbowl traffic to go pick up this custom for this specific type of car fuel tank. It was in an NHRA 25.5 certified car. Im not stupid enough to show up to a race with it NOW, as I can assure you that it wont pass just so you can be right. This isnt my first rodeo, and I have personally seen TANKS in tech that walked right through with compliments on the mounting. I took carefull looks at how it was exicuted, so that I could duplicate it. I CAN ASSURE YOU THIS HAS AND WILL CONTINUE UNTILL THE RULES ARE REWORDED.

The poblem is, you get to say what will pass. I am intelegent enough (even though I was very rudely snubbed and none of the very important OTHER QUESTIONS asked were answered) to send an email looking for clarification on this subject, before showing up and having built a car and not get to run it due to vague rules. YOU NEED TO GET THIS ISSUE FIXED.

I would like to help someone building a car to avoid this, too. I dont doubt that shitty fuel systems show up. I can assure you, a fabbed tank (without a bladder, properly mounted) is going to be free from leaks and not be rusted paper thin and ready to fall apart, like our factory tank. By the way, you cant get the fittings to repair this factory style. There is an option for throwing a newer style tank in the older bodystyle, and while 99% of people wouldnt be able to tell it wasnt oem FOR THAT CAR, you say it isnt going to pass a rule that isnt written.

I would hope that would be your goal, for everyones safety, and not having to have issues at the track because all the prep was done at home...

FIX THE VERBAGE OF THE RULEBOOK!!!

FWIW, you can bet that fuel issues are going to get to be a more of a problem as time goes on. E10 and E15 fuels are very hard on soft rubber parts, and even harder as these cars get older. I assume you already know this. I took a fuel pump out of a late 70's car last week that had completely dissolved the pickup sock and the hose going from the pump up to the top of the tank. One of our race cars (using the o so safe) factory fuel system developed leaks we chased for two races. Rubber grommets and hoses had deteriorated, and this car was a 96. I want to avoid this, but $700 plus fuel hose and fittings adds up VERY quick, and THE RULES ALLOW TANKS AND CELLS OTHER THAN STOCK OR RIA CERTED. FIX THIS VERBAGE.

And please, dont talk down to people, it make you look uninteligent, and I know that you arent.

My example though was for restoration purposes   You think any gold chainer corvette afficianado would accept that the Chevette gas tank was OEM?  I think everyone is taking the term OEM too literally, it means original to the vehicle, not just the manufacturer.

I know you were speaking tongue in cheek, but just wanted to put it out there for all the Smokey Jr's

Good point and even more clarifying.

Don't get hung up over the term "bladder".

Poly bladder aka plastic hard bladder = (equals) "bladder"

just like soft, ziplock bag-like bladder = "bladder".

My FuelSafe Enduro cell is a poly (plastic) bladder in a metal can and is FIA FT3 certified. Soft rubber skin versus plastic (or "hard") bladder is still a "bladder" and can still pass FIA specs.  I went round and round with someone over the VARA rules of a "soft bladder FIA fuel cell" and how my Enduro cell is a FIA approved "soft bladder" flexible fuel cell that qualifies within their rules. (and how I WASN'T going to buy HIS $1600 fuel fuel cell).

The ATL cell innards that was once in the Mr. Bean LeMini was also FIA certified poly/plastic, but we had it in a home made metal can. BUT it is ALSO isolated from the passenger compartment in trunk with a sealed bulkhead. It was always looked at twice at tech, but each time the fact that it was isolated from the passenger compartment prevented us from having to undo the dozen or so bolts to remove the top to prove it was an ATL FIA approved poly bladder.

My point is (or was-- since I'm now editing this for clarity) : don't get hung up over the material that makes up the bladder for a fuel cell that is ALSO going to be isolated from the passenger compartment with a sealed wall. Metal can + bladder + isolation from passenger compartment+ securely mounted = minimum required to pass tech.

I think another issue that's cropping up with the way the rules are attempting to be interpreted is that we're in this race series, among other reasons, because it's Cheap. We don't necessarily want to skimp on safety, but some of us are on pretty tough and narrow budgets to even field our cars.

Fuel cells being the current example; there's this cel available from Summit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-290113/
by the rule's current wording, and by your earlier posts, John, this unit should be absolutely fine, pending an excellent installation and perhaps necessitating a bulkhead separator since the product description doesn't explicitly state an FIA cert(for all we know it -could- be, product descriptions miss stuff all the time)

EDIT: I removed a BUNCH of stuff that I was misinterperting because i don't want to confuse any other boneheads like me.

Thanks!

BIG EDIT: I Re-checked my wording. I have removed the sheer obtuse-ness of my sleep-deprived ramblings to prevent further confusion thanks to me.

You had an OE tank that worked.  In the Citation, our OE tank was completely rusted and unrepairable.  We made this:

It's in the trunk with all lines and pumps inside the crash structure.  It passed early last year.  If that car were to run again, would we need to change the tank?  As you can see, making changes to put another tank in that area would be more involved.

What are the rules on surge tanks? We're converting a fuel injected car with dual rear tanks to carburetion. IF we were considering a surge tank at the front of the trunk (with a sealed metal wall) to gravity feed from both tanks and then use a low-pressure fuel pump to feed the engine, is it do-able within the eyes of the tech inspectors?

This is just a question, we're planning on keeping the "one tank at a time" fuel setup the way it is and replacing the FI fuel pump with a lower pressure pump.