Topic: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

Nearly all of the LEDs on the Tinyvette's instrument panel have died. They are simply wired to the 12V power of the car, then to ground, of course with a current-limiting resistor so that they work properly in a 12V system. All very normal, and they only draw about 10-20 mA.

I'm pretty sure that what is happening is that various inductive loads in the system are spiking the voltage and killing the LEDs. These loads come from the electric fan, starter solenoid, and possibly the starter motor itself. For you non-engineer types, an inductor can be a simple coil, and once current is flowing through it it tends to try to keep the current flowing. If you stop the current, such as when you turn off the fan, the inductor will send the voltage up as it tries to maintain the current flow. I wouldn't be surprised if the voltage spike is close to 100 volts. Have you noticed how when you unplug certain appliances that are running that you can get a pretty good arc. At around 10k volts per inch even a 1/8' arc means your seeing a pretty high voltage on disconnect.

So, how to deal with this? Do I install a shunt resistor across the motor's terminals, or an MOV, or a diode? And if so, how do I rate them, such has how much power they can handle?

Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

A diode is the right way if you believe Bosch.

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

I think your best option would be to isolate and regulate power to the LEDs using a LM7812 or 7805.  Most charging systems can have a pretty wide voltage swing during normal operation.  Flyback from fan motors, etc.. can be isolated with a mechanical or solid state relay.

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

These are more expensive, but use instead of resistor.
http://www.centralsemi.com/product/cld/index.aspx

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

IIRC, won't a capactitor work best to smooth out the spikes? Another question would be, shouldn't the battery smooth out the spikes?

Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

Depending on how your kill switch is wired, the LEDs may be getting voltage-spiked when they test the kill switch operation at 3000+ rpm when in tech.  We have had some issues with that.

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

Capacitor is what I was thinking. A smallish filter cap to ground in your supply circuit to the dash lighting would probably take care of it. You might also consider a larger value resistor to reduce the LED supply voltage further, maybe you're too close to their tolerance?

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

m610 wrote:

Nearly all of the LEDs on the Tinyvette's instrument panel have died. They are simply wired to the 12V power of the car, then to ground, of course with a current-limiting resistor so that they work properly in a 12V system. All very normal, and they only draw about 10-20 mA.

no.

You have them on 12v, that's whats killing them. Most LED are designed to run on about 1.8 vDC.

First you have to drop the voltage to around 2 vdc per LED. You can put a bunch in series, and then limit the current or you can drop the voltage with a voltage divider and then limit the current.  depends on what you are using them for, dash lighting or idiot lights.

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9 (edited by sublimate 2011-02-14 09:37 AM)

Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

m610 wrote:

They are simply wired to the 12V power of the car, then to ground, of course with a current-limiting resistor so that they work properly in a 12V system. All very normal, and they only draw about 10-20 mA.

What value resistor are you using?  Have you measured the current, or just calculating?

m610 wrote:

Have you noticed how when you unplug certain appliances that are running that you can get a pretty good arc. At around 10k volts per inch even a 1/8' arc means your seeing a pretty high voltage on disconnect.

Once an arc forms the air ionizes and the resistance (and so the required voltage) goes way, way down.  When you unplug something the gap is infinitely small when the two conductors first separate, so it takes very little voltage to form the arc.  The arc is then maintained even as you pull the conductors farther apart because the ionized air conducts well.  This will happen when you unplug almost anything, like even a simple light which has no significant inductance, and is mostly just a function of the amount of current the device is drawing, not inductance.  It's not because of a spike of 1000s of volts.




My guess is you just need a bigger resistor.  Remember, your alternator is putting out 14v (or more, if it's not being well regulated), not 12v, so size your resistor for that.  And check your alternator voltage at engine redline.  Many alternators are not that well regulated since they're made for cheap cars that aren't intended to run at high rpm for any length of time.  When you race it and run the rpms way up there you might find it's putting out 16 to 20 volts or more.

Also make sure you're using the proper voltage and current for your actual LEDs (they range from 1.8v to 3.5 v, and 10 to 30 mA), not just the values for a generic LED.

-Victor

Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

These LEDs already have a resistor in series to drop the voltage. These are Dailight LEDs that were designed to be powered by 12v, 15v max. And it's not quite as simple as providing 1.8 volts to operate an LED. LEDs require typically 1.25 - 2 volts to turn them on, but after that you just have to limit the current to 10-20 mA. So the resistor value would be something like R = (12 - 1.8) / 0.020.

Capacitors are used on motors, but I always thought they were there to help with start-up.

This morning someone on the OpelGT forums used an o-scope to check the voltage when he quit cranking and it showed the voltage spiking twice to -40 volts within 20 ms. I figure one spike is for the solenoid and the other for the motor.

LEDs are diodes and diodes can resist a certain amount of reverse voltage. These LEDs are rated for 15V forward max and 5 volts reverse. A -40V spike could definitely kill them. A simple solution would be to place a diode such as a common 1N4005 in series with it. These diodes can handle 1000V reverse and can flow 1 amp forward. It would drop the voltage by 0.7V, but that would only dim the LED by about 6%.

I was thinking of putting everything behind a 7812 regulator and use a simple transistor to turn the LEDs on, but then had concerns about the voltages that the transistor would see at it's base. Now I know it could be -40 volts if I don't do something to reduce that, say, using a simple voltage divider, then that transistor would probably fail. Anyway, this general approach makes more sense than trying to clean up the electrical system at the source because there a some many other things in the car that could send spikes through the system, like turning the headlights, and the auxiliary headlights if we run R-F race, off and on.

Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

m610 wrote:

Capacitors are used on motors, but I always thought they were there to help with start-up.

Different kind of capacitor, different purpose.

Google is your friend:
http://electronicrepairguide.com/filter … ction.html

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

Weird, I was just on that site reading about diodes in series and parallel.

Filter caps might work.

I am going to try the diodes in series approach first. It's simpler.

Regarding diodes in parallel in that site's article, they were wrong. You can't double the current handling capability of a diode circuit by putting an identical diode in parallel because one of them will turn on before the other and will try to pass all of the current, and will blow up, before the other one has a chance to turn on and take it's share of the load.

13 (edited by Mulry 2011-02-14 05:45 PM)

Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

You people with your "wisdom" and your "knowledge." You're letting the smoke out of your LED's somewhere along the way. You're probably running that high-fallutin' 100% synthetic blinker smoke when everybody on the blinker smoke forum knows that pure dino blinker smoke is best for LED operations on a Lemons car. Pure synthetic blinker smoke on cars this old just seeps past the worn seals...

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

As far as i know LED replacement bulbs only have a resistor in them.  http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/ … 2F1157.htm  They also have a led / resistor calculator  http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/ … d_info.htm

Most things meant to last in an automotive electrical system are designed to handle 80v spikes.  There are audio noise filters that help smooth out the 12v power, some use transistors, inductors, etc.

I think its being overthought a bit.  You could grab a potentiometer that will swing to 200 ohms, put it inline and slowly turn the resistance down until you think the light output is still acceptable.  Then get those resistors and add them in line to your leds.  If you have one, you could put a meter in line to measure how many ma they are actually being driven by and turn the potentiometer resistance up till the led is down to an acceptable ma level.  Then measure the potentiometers resistance out of the circuit without touching the knob and use that resistor per led.  Wiring LEDs in series means if one dies that group goes out so its a it works or it really doesnt kinda thing.

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Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

Or put some non-LEDS in.......

Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

A bundle of LEDs, if wired in series, would be able to handle larger reverse voltage spikes than a single LED or LEDs in parallel.

I'm pretty sure at this point that the reverse voltage spikes are the problem. I'll test that by placing a 1N4005 diode in series and reversing the polarity to see if the LED survives. Its specs say if is only good for reverse voltages of 5 volts.

The Opel guy I mentioned earlier, the one reporting the -V spikes, confirmed that the spikes are absorbed at the battery. I guess my problem is that the battery, relocated to the back of the car, is about 12 feet away from the starter's power terminal and the LEDs are only 2 feet away and going in the other direction. Also, the solenoid terminal is where the biggest spikes were found, and that would feed right back up into my gauge panel where our starter switch is.

Re: Inductors and voltage and electro-destruction

m610 wrote:

Regarding diodes in parallel in that site's article, they were wrong. You can't double the current handling capability of a diode circuit by putting an identical diode in parallel because one of them will turn on before the other and will try to pass all of the current, and will blow up, before the other one has a chance to turn on and take it's share of the load.

Unless you have balancing resistors in there.  A resistor in series with each LED will balance the load - you usually only need about 0.5 ohm. 

Your last post identified your problem.  You need to have one feed from the battery dedicated to the starter, and run a separate feed to the power distribution point.  You ideally should use a relay to switch the starter solenoid, unless you get a seriously heavy-duty switch.  If you're doing that, I would isolate that switch from the rest of your power.

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