51 (edited by RobL 2011-02-24 08:03 AM)

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

EyeMWing wrote:

It's official and confirmed:
I just spent a crapton of time writing code to analyze this problem.

Can you post or send me this data?  I do statistics/modelling/projections for a living and this is not what I expected to see.

(work is blocking the actual graphs but looking at it on my phone - you can't use a straight "average speed" since all track have different averages.  If you can, normalize the speed as a percentage of fastest lap)

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

The teams at CMP (and MSR) have gotten a lot faster as they've piled on the seat time, no doubt about it.

What I've learned from all these races is that you don't have to be fast to get in the top 10 of any given race; a reliable car that turns endless black-flag-free laps— even fairly slow ones— will usually accomplish that. You do have to be fast to get in the top 5, however. Not the quickest thing on the track, but within a few seconds of the quickest car.

53 (edited by Spank 2011-02-24 09:03 AM)

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

It would be interesting to remove the cars that broke and lost laps for repairs from the graph. (go with a removing a car that's had more than a 1 hour off-track "pit stop" )

I know I know, reliability is a major component to overall placing. But it seems to reason that reliability coupled with top speed (actually ability to get up to speed / midrange torque which can translate to top speed/fastest laps) are key.

There is a tradeoff certainly because as speed envelopes are pushed on $500 cars reliability goes down. So finding that crossover point is what everyone is really trying to do.

But speed is nice. And when I say "speed", I mean being able to at least run with a pack for a while.

At ArseFreeze 2010 we were faced with a decision in our turbocharged A-series mini to either keep the turbo and replace the head gasket for the second time on Saturday (and keep using an obviously cracked head and scored cylinder), or yank it and put in our NA, 50-ish hp backup motor. Josh of www.yoshifab.com, who was doing the head gasket swaps and neanderthal tuning on the started-for-the-first-time-at-the-track motor, summed it up for many of the other mini drivers, "I've driven the mini in 2 other races now with a regular motor. I'd rather do 2 laps with the turbo in it than 50 without it." Sunday it ran all day, mostly.

54 (edited by EyeMWing 2011-02-24 09:32 AM)

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

Alright, CMP fans:
Here you go.

All CMP races since the start of 2010:
http://pic.phyrefile.com/e/ey/eyemwing/2011/02/24/SpeedVsPositionCMP.png

Southern Discomfort 2010:
http://pic.phyrefile.com/e/ey/eyemwing/2011/02/24/SpeedVsPositionCMP1.png
South Spring 2010:
http://pic.phyrefile.com/e/ey/eyemwing/2011/02/24/SpeedVsPositionCMP2.png
South Fall 2010:
http://pic.phyrefile.com/e/ey/eyemwing/2011/02/24/SpeedVsPositionCMP3.png
Southern Discomfort 2011:
http://pic.phyrefile.com/e/ey/eyemwing/2011/02/24/SpeedVsPositionCMP4.png

Note that there is one outlier that's WAY offscreen: What appears to be a transponder glitch on Student Drivers at Southern Discomfort 2011.



It is interesting, however, that if you look at the individual races, you'll see that it DOES appear to matter how fast you are in the top 10-15% of the field - but only in comparison with each other, not the field at large.



RobL wrote:

Can you post or send me this data?  I do statistics/modelling/projections for a living and this is not what I expected to see.

(work is blocking the actual graphs but looking at it on my phone - you can't use a straight "average speed" since all track have different averages.  If you can, normalize the speed as a percentage of fastest lap)

As in x=bestSpeed / laptimeInSeconds ? That seems a bit off, since the speed value is already computed from laptime and the track length.

At any rate, if you do that you end up with the uncorrelated column-looking thing you do above on a per-race basis, a bunch of seperate (occasionally partially overlapping) columns for each event.



As for the data, it's copy-paste from Mylaps - which gives you something similar to a tab-separated values file, except with really mangled data fields for some races. Here's the raw data:
http://www.phyrefile.com/file/view/X1xReTd8XMO5NiEv

If you'd like, I can massage that into XML, or a proper CSV, or whatever pretty easily, since the parser I wrote uses (almost) all the available data (It ignores most DNS cars)

There are two races missing from the 2010 season - the season opener because it's missing timing data on mylaps, and one other race because it seems to be completely missing.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

steve wrote:

We were slower than a Cow dropped out of a helicopter. just sayin

Terminal Velocity Bovine sounds like a great name for a band.  Or a Lemons car.

El Capitan de Substandard Racing -  Houston, Tx
2009 Yee Haw! It's Lemons Texas: 1973 Gremlin - Gremwow!
2010 Gator-O-Rama: 1973 Gremlin - Gremlin Express, Lassiez le Crapheaps Roulette - Gremlin - Most Heroic Fix
http://substandardracing.blogspot.com/

56 (edited by RobL 2011-02-24 11:22 AM)

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

EyeMWing wrote:

It is interesting, however, that if you look at the individual races, you'll see that it DOES appear to matter how fast you are in the top 10-15% of the field - but only in comparison with each other, not the field at large.



RobL wrote:

Can you post or send me this data?  I do statistics/modelling/projections for a living and this is not what I expected to see.

(work is blocking the actual graphs but looking at it on my phone - you can't use a straight "average speed" since all track have different averages.  If you can, normalize the speed as a percentage of fastest lap)

As in x=bestSpeed / laptimeInSeconds ? That seems a bit off, since the speed value is already computed from laptime and the track length.

At any rate, if you do that you end up with the uncorrelated column-looking thing you do above on a per-race basis, a bunch of seperate (occasionally partially overlapping) columns for each event.

Nope, you basically did what I was asking when you broke the races out individually... 

The track isn't constant throughout the race, much less over the course of multiple races.  You can see this by the differences in the average speeds in the different races.  The racetrack itself is getting slower each race as we smooth over the aggregate  in the asphalt.  That difference needed to be accounted for and it wasn’t. 

What I do see are a couple of trends.  One is actually the one we say doesn't exist - but it stastically does.  The faster cars finish higher.  This trend is strongest within the top 10% of cars.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

Yeah. I see it now. Hazard of working without coffee.

It gets really interesting once you look at it for the whole season.
http://pic.phyrefile.com/e/ey/eyemwing/2011/02/24/fullSeasonSpeedPositionNormal.png
(Each car's x position is assigned based on the fraction of the best car at the event)

That nice inverted-right-triangle effect is (probably) breakdowns and BS laps at work. Or maybe there are other factors. There are a couple more I can pull out of some other data I'm trying to parse. That kind of exploration probably needs a thread of its own, though.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

EyeMWing wrote:

Yeah. I see it now. Hazard of working without coffee.

That's why I get paid the big bucks...  :roll:

A cleaner graph might be if you normalize the best average speed against the winners best average speed.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

Looks like CSI blood splatter analysis.

"Real ZomBees prefer Bacon"
IOE(x2) MGB/SAAB 96, Judge's Choice, Class C Win, & 2011 Hooniverse Car of the Year!
MRolla, Stick Figure/Animal House, Free Range MR2, SAAB Sonett, "The Death Flip"
2008 Exoskeleton Jag Fiasco, Concours d Lemons - Rue Britannia, worse British car.

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

that sure looks like half a bell curve to me.

One day, Mister ffffffffffffffffox!

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

Could it possibly be (gasp) that teams that are good at making a car go fast are often good at keeping it on the track as well? If we had to go through the effort of constructing a 300hp monster, you'd bet that it'd have a 10 sq ft radiator out of a truck and the biggest brakes and best tires that money could possibly buy, together with a truckfull of spares. Especially if, god forbid, we had a bunch of fast drivers who'd probably thrash the crap out of the car.

K Car Stalker

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

firegremlin wrote:

'86 Nissan Stanza Wagon, Team Sputnik, Southern Discomfort 2011.

It just warmed the cockles of my heart watching the wagon go round and round at CMP. Plus the Honda cycle with direct injection was pretty damn cool too.

Team Seppuku
1979 Toyota Celica GT Liftback

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

I know the fastest I have ever been is at No Problem Raceway at the end of the stright-a-way @ 135mph

Team Sensory Assault

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

What all this tells me is what most of us already knew: reliability, clean driving, and pit strategy puts you in the top 10% - from there, speed is key.

We saw this when the Audi ran a perfect race - clean, quick driver changes, no black flags, and long stints.  They finished 7th out of about 100 cars.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

In order to truly answer this question, the OP needs to designate whether or not he has a mustache.

Mike Peters
Former rotary brat pioneer.
3.17.08 Jalopnik Hoon of the day.  #hasbeen
1984 Dodge Rampage, A few SHO engines, a Mustang 8.8, and a lot of hot glue going on now.

Re: What kind of top speeds are people seeing on the track?

Goatman wrote:

I know this is VERY subjective and depends on the track and the car, but I'm just looking for ideas since we have some choices with gearing.

BMW 325e (the slow 2.7 motor) + good drivers + MSR Houston = 99mph according to data logger.

If I were you, I would gear the car so that it minimizes shifting rather than maximizes speed. I guess you could put a really steep gear in it so you are using 5th gear to top out at 105-110, but you might be upping the number of shifts per lap. More shifts=more room for error and more wear on the clutch. We only use 3rd & 4th gear at MSR Houston. Third gear is only used in three places. Other than that, it's 4th. So, we are only making six shifts per lap: three down and three up.

Quite honestly, drivers who are good on the brakes will do more for your "top speed" than a fast car because you lengthen the straightaways significantly. Three of our drivers are pretty fast and they can make up about 10 car lengths on an average driver in the fastest part of the track because they drive so deep into the next corner. Our car will often get pulled on the straightaway only to shoot past 3-4 cars in the braking zone. If you are still accelerating when others are braking, you make up lots of time.

#61 Theissen's Revenge