Topic: Help me fix my other car (long)

There are quite a few good wrenches here, so I figured I'd throw this out to hear some opinions. The car is an '85 Ford LTD LX with a '93 Mustang 5.0 swapped in. AFR aluminum heads, Cobra intake, has been running fine with this combo for several years until I discovered an external coolant leak at the back of the lower intake.

Two weekends ago I changed the intake gaskets on my car. I was expecting the gaskets to look warped/smashed, but they appeared fine. Swapped in some new steel core Felpro 1250S-3s (with thin film of RTV around coolant ports) and called it good.

I didn't have a chance to change the oil or retorque the intake bolts after letting the car warm up and cool down, so I waited until this past Saturday to do it. Topped off the coolant, and headed out for a drive. When I stopped I noticed I had a coolant leak. I forgot to tighten up the hose clamp on a heater tube hose (above the water pump). So I tightened up the clamp and headed home. Temp was fine the whole time. When I got home I noticed the overflow reservoir was overflowing. I waited until the car cooled down and opened the radiator cap and it was holding a bunch of air pressure. The air pressure gushed out (along with some coolant).

I chalked this up to being a lot of air in the system due to the coolant leaking out, so I jacked up the car so the front was in the air (to bleed the air out), topped off the coolant, and let it idle with the rad cap off. Temp got over 200 (which is odd, electric fan normally comes on around 190) and the coolant started geysering and gushing out of the radiator. I let it keep doing that and eventually it settled down and my fan came on. Car started running at normal temps and the coolant level stayed at the radiator neck. No bubbles at all in the coolant. Great. I called it good, put the radiator cap back on, and took the car for a spirited drive. Temp was fine (190), but I had the same problem, overflow reservoir was full, cap released a lot of pressure, and the level of the coolant was down.

I have since pressure tested the system and it's losing pressure. The only external leak I could detect was a small leak in the radiator core. I only found it by hearing a slight hissing with the garage door closed, but there seems to be no fluid leaking out. I can feel the t-stat open by the upper hose getting hot and firm. The issues I'm having are commonly caused by a bad head gasket or cracked heads, so I used a block tester with the car running and the fluid did not turn yellow. Based on that, and the fact that I could see no bubbles in the coolant, it doesn't seem likely to be a head gasket problem, but I have yet to pull the plugs or check compression. Just for fun, I drove the car normally (1/2 throttle or less) for a couple of hours while running errands, and the overflow tank filled up again.

Common sense would dictate that the only thing that has changed is the intake gaskets, so the issue must be related to this, but I can't figure out why. Any suggestions or recommendations on what else I can do to diagnose this without pulling the engine apart again?

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

It sure enough sounds like classic headgasket, but failing the block test is odd. I'll check with a few friends on this deal.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

I'm not an expert, but i play one on TV. have you tried changing the radiator cap?
if i read it right, your overflow fills after any driving, but your t-stat and fan are working.
you know there is a leak in the pressure test, but the only place you see fluid is in the overflow.

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

The cap has been pressure tested and releases just over 16psi as designed.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Scott, I would start with getting the rad fiixed, pressure is being releaced, similar to a faulty cap.

Second, the t-stat openimng would make the hose soft, it may be faulty as well.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Yeah, I agree that the best course of action is to first fix the known existing problems before chasing down unknowns. It just seems hard to believe that a tiny leak would cause this issue, but who knows.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Since it didn't overheat before you worked on it, I would go back and recheck the intake gaskets. A gasket slipped or ??? Could you have installed the intake gaskets backwards? The coolant openings should be at the front of the intake by the thermostat, not the rear. Most intake gaskets use a restrictor or block off the rear coolant passage at the back of the head.

This isn't really your problem but, I once used Felpro intake gaskets on a Ford 4.2 V6 and they didn't seal at the rear very well. Water would seep out the passenger head at the back as coolant pressure built up. But there was no overheating. Installing OEM Ford gaskets fixed it.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

The intake gaskets on the 302 are symmetrical, so there's no wrong way to install them. I used gasket spray adhesive to stick them on the heads before installing, and I cut down some bolts to use at studs so the gaskets couldn't move (much) and the intake went straight down on the heads.

But I do agree it seems that this is more than a coincidence.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

After reading this I question the thermostat, can you visually verify coolant flow with the cap off?

A bad cap would not get pressurize.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Yes, I can see coolant flowing across the radiator.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

But, I'll throw a new thermostat in there anyway.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Well I just ordered a new radiator. I have a feeling it's just the tip of the iceberg, but at least I know I can eliminate the radiator leak as the source of the pressurizing problem. I'll throw a new Motorcraft t-stat in there too.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Pressure only comes from 2 places,heat or head gasket  failure.

If the head gaskets are bad the engine will pressurize before it heats up.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

14 (edited by LTDScott 2011-02-28 11:32 AM)

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

I fixed the known radiator leak and did some more diagnosis over the weekend. Pulled all the plugs and they looked fine. Checked compression, all cylinders were mid 160s except 1 which was 147 and 4 which was 155. If the two low cylinders were next to each other then I could conclude the head gasket was bad there, but in this case it could be a bad gasket, weak rings (untouched 180K mile bottom end), etc.

I thought I'd be smart and use my compressor to blow air into the compression tester hose to check for bubbles at the radiator, but then my dumb ass realized I never accounted for the cylinder being at TDC or not, so of course there'd be no bubbles if a valve was open. I then replaced the thermostat for good measure, and it appears that I installed the last one backwards. The spring side was in the thermostat housing rather than the intake. It's been that way for at least 2 years and I don't know how I didn't see any ill effects from that earlier.

Put the car back together, bled the coolant (the system burped and the coolant level dropped way down as soon as the t-stat opened, which is how it should be but was not that way last time) and took it for a drive. No improvement sad  The radiator was still holding built up pressure nearly 24 hours after I drove the car. It smells like exhaust in the radiator neck. I'm thinking the block tester I used may have been faulty? I think I have to face the fact that my head gasket or head is likely blown.

I just don't get how a simple intake gasket replacement could do this. I never had any problem like this in the 5+ years the heads have been on the car. The only possible thing I can think of is the fact that I drove the car hard with a coolant leak (the heater tube hose that had a loose clamp), which got air in the system, and the air turned into steam which killed the head gasket somehow? Any thoughts?

I obviously need to tear the top of the engine down to the block. I also have a tubular K-member to install at the same time. At that point it's very little extra work to pull the whole engine from the car. Lord, this is gonna snowball.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Shoot, sorry to hear that, Scott.  Good luck.

Did you test to see if there was pressure prior to the car heating up?  (just going off of Team Infinniti's post.)

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

I didn't, but I can. Problem is, the system isn't pushing coolant out when just sitting and idling, so I couldn't drive much without heating it up.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

17 (edited by EriktheAwful 2011-02-28 04:17 PM)

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Buy one of these and run your engine with it filled halfway. If it starts burping exhaust after the thermostat opens, you'll know for sure. Plus it's the handiest damn coolant funnel you'll ever buy. I highly recommend it to anyone who ever has to put coolant in a car. Jack up the front end, fill it halfway, run the engine until the thermostat opens, keep the funnel half full, and you'll have no trouble bleeding the coolant.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog? … CMQ8wIwAg#

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

After the coolant "burped" this last time when the t-stat opened, the coolant level stayed relatively steady with no bubbles. I don't think I can recreate the problem sitting at idle.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

LTDScott wrote:

I didn't, but I can. Problem is, the system isn't pushing coolant out when just sitting and idling, so I couldn't drive much without heating it up.

That thar's the missing clue.

Pressure comes from Combustion or exhaust - not going to come from intake gaskets unless you are turbo/supercharged.

You have a wee-small crack in a head, and as they are alu, probably between the steel seat and the head at an exhaust valve. It might be between an intake and exhaust, but that wouldn't make a difference in diagnosis.
~ it opens up when combustion pressures go high, as in under loaded driving conditions.
   You won't see pressure build up idling.
   It won't release and fill a bore because it is small and only opens loaded.
~ your distributor gets removed when you do a manifold, yes?
   the 'change' you made when replacing gaskets was a very small bump in ignition timing.
   This causes compression pressures to go high at load, just enough to open a crack
   OR - a head gasket is weak and the head studs are stretching enough for similar result
   --but this latter will get much worse rater rapidly, and usually be found with the fizz-tester.

Getting heads "pressure checked" sometimes will not show the size crack you are likely to have! A good head-man can spot this sized crack visually with a magnifying glass, but if they were to get sandblasted or aggressively cleaned before a check-out it might be missed. Pressure-test with Dye-Glo will usually Not miss this...

~said~ now if not that, then it IS a head gasket just barely failing, at the sealing-ring to a waterway, and again, timing and hot-run combustion pressures are doing the deed - and will get rapidly worse if you drive it more.  A crack will take longer to get worse (unless you run it dry)

ON the T-stat backwards: they work backwards, but during warm-up and non-hard driving you will see a spike in temps then a cool-down, the gauge will go up-down-up-down noticeably as the t-stat bulb lags instantaneous temps in the water path. Not great for long-term life of heads. The initial system warm-up can generate steam-high temps on the upstream side of the t-stat, your temp gauge may not indicate these depending on where in the stream it is.
~here's the here: the t-stat senses temp in the bulb - put one in backwards and the area of water not flowing on the 'behind-the-door' of the t-stat only warms by conduction. There can be a significant lag in time between closed and open dependent upon the initial starting temp. If your t-stat has a itty-bitty purge-port (1/8" hole with a dingus in it) and it's installed backwards this effect will be lessened to a slight degree (enough to make the gauge readings not fluctuate wildly).
--net effect, on warm-up in winter months - could be overheating critical places like the exh valve seats and the weakest part of head gasket clamping during warm-up. Not enough to notice, but after repeated times enough to matter.

Sorry to say - heads off, inspect, replace gaskets at least...

Re: Help me fix my other car (long)

Yeah, I had to pull the distributor. I checked static timing and set it to generally where it was before (about 16 BTDC). But I suppose between this, and sealing up the escape routes for the pressure (leaking lower intake gaskets, small hole in radiator), the pressure from a blown head/gasket has no where else to go. I still can't figure out why the block tester didn't work though.

My thermostat did have the small bleed valve in it, so that may have helped somewhat. I never noticed a spike or big movement in the temp gauge (which is mechanical and has the sender in the intake manifold).

I could just pull the heads, check the heads, and if good, replace the gaskets. But the bottom end is pushing 200K miles and it would be silly to band-aid it back together considering I will probably never sell this car so it may be time to look into that stroker bottom end I've always wanted. Unfortunately it's just bad timing, as my savings are going into my upcoming wedding. I need this like a hole in the head! (pun intended).

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.