Topic: suspension mystery

My car is sitting 1"-2" lower after the race than before. I can't get the jack under it anymore. It squats more at all 4 corners. I can't find anything broken. It is a 1973 mercedes and this was it's 3rd race. Is it possible that the springs are fatigued? All four at once? I'm thinking it's not the shocks because they don't really have a role in supporting the weight of the car. The tires are all fine. Perhaps I lost a little tread depth but certainly not 2" worth.

Very strange.

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Re: suspension mystery

did you cut the springs? it is possible they settled / slipped off the perch

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Re: suspension mystery

Shocks have more to do with supporting the weight of the car than you might think. If they were gas-pressurized shocks, the gas pressure adds to the effective spring rate. When the seals go and they lose pressure, I know on a Miata you can lose as much as 3/4" to an inch of height. On a larger, heavier car that is working with more suspension travel to begin with, it stands to reason that you could lose a lot more height than that.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

4 (edited by VKZ24 2011-02-28 07:45 AM)

Re: suspension mystery

If he has shocks stiff enough to raise a '73 Merc 2" them SOBs are really S-T-I-F-F !!!!

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: suspension mystery

This is Lemons.
All 4 of your springs have failed.

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1969 Subaru 360

Re: suspension mystery

Crab Spirits wrote:

This is Lemons.
All 4 of your springs have failed.

^This.  3 Races worth of working at or above max capacity at their age and you'd be sagging too.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
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Re: suspension mystery

squidbreath wrote:

My car is sitting 1"-2" lower after the race than before. I can't get the jack under it anymore. It squats more at all 4 corners. I can't find anything broken. It is a 1973 mercedes and this was it's 3rd race. Is it possible that the springs are fatigued? All four at once? I'm thinking it's not the shocks because they don't really have a role in supporting the weight of the car. The tires are all fine. Perhaps I lost a little tread depth but certainly not 2" worth.

Very strange.

You have a 1-2" lower CG now.   You're complaining about that?    get a lower jack......;-)

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Re: suspension mystery

mike944 wrote:
squidbreath wrote:

My car is sitting 1"-2" lower after the race than before. I can't get the jack under it anymore. It squats more at all 4 corners. I can't find anything broken. It is a 1973 mercedes and this was it's 3rd race. Is it possible that the springs are fatigued? All four at once? I'm thinking it's not the shocks because they don't really have a role in supporting the weight of the car. The tires are all fine. Perhaps I lost a little tread depth but certainly not 2" worth.

Very strange.

You have a 1-2" lower CG now.   You're complaining about that?    get a lower jack......;-)

/\ this. its lower now should go 35mph instead of 30 around corners.

No Budget Racing
Chief Instigator
1991 Ponticrap OnFirebird
Racing a Camaro/Firebird at Lemons is a box full of fail, thats why we do it.

Re: suspension mystery

mike944 wrote:

get a lower jack......;-)

Not very lemony. 
Get yerself a few chunks of 2x4 and shove em under the tires and roll forward, should get you up enough to get the jack under it (used to race an AH sprite with crap for ground clearance always worked for me)

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: suspension mystery

+1.  i had to do that on my autoX miata.

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
"Winner" - We Got Screwed, NJMP '11

11 (edited by EriktheAwful 2011-02-28 03:59 PM)

Re: suspension mystery

I think you've fatigued your springs.

We cut too much off the springs on our Jag, so I use my small jack to jack up the side of the car enough to get the big jack under the crossmember.

Re: suspension mystery

shocks: they don't show other signs of failure. ie they still damp well.

springs off perches: yes, I cut the springs. they appear to be on their perches but i'll look again.

fatigue: this seems most likely to me. (just by elimination of other reasons)

lower cog: yes. more negative camber, too. the car wasn't faster. I'd say I lost 3-5 seconds out of 2:15 at MSR Houston over the course of the weekend. it started bottoming out over the little hump at the start of the twisty section.

The car has always cornered pretty well. It's problem is acceleration and top speed.

Thanks for the tips. i'll probably go the 2x4 route as that is the cheapest and lowest tech solution.

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Re: suspension mystery

1"-2" in one race isn't from spring fatigue.  If the bottom of the spring is on the perch you may be off at the top.  Any clanging noises as you turn the wheel?

What type of suspension is it?  The Germans are notorious for designing suspensions that have really wacky adjustments (just try doing an alignment on an early 911 with a swing-axle).  You may have something that sets ride height that has slipped.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
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Re: suspension mystery

squidbreath wrote:

lower cog: yes. more negative camber, too. the car wasn't faster. I'd say I lost 3-5 seconds out of 2:15 at MSR Houston over the course of the weekend. it started bottoming out over the little hump at the start of the twisty section.

Thanks for the tips. i'll probably go the 2x4 route as that is the cheapest and lowest tech solution.

The only ill effect besides decreasing rates as the springs get worse is that You'll get more-and-more bottoming - and your lap times will go up accordingly.

If you can add or change "bump rubber" to soften the bottoming, I'd find a way to do it.

~welcome to endurance racing~

Re: suspension mystery

Physics check...

When a spring fatigues due to repeated cycling from age or race use, does it lose spring rate?

No, it does not. As long as the thickness of the wire is the same and the diameter of the coils is the same, the spring rate will not change. Springs may sag, but they don't get softer.

If anything, what will happen is that since most stock springs use the spacing of the coils to provide a "progressive" spring rate, the coils that are closer together will "coil bind" and the spring rate will actually go UP. (same effect as cutting a coil)

That's not to say that you won't be bottoming out. Just saying that at no point does your spring rate decrease. Gotta love the black art of suspension tuning!

Put some SHOCKS on the car to control those springs. Just because a shock isn't completely blown out and leaking oil, or it passes the infamous "bounce test", does NOT mean that it is providing sufficient damping for good handling or enough damping to keep the suspension from bottoming out.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: suspension mystery

EriktheAwful wrote:

We cut too much off the springs on our Jag, so I use my small jack to jack up the side of the car enough to get the big jack under the crossmember.

You too huh?  We now have a two jack system to lift the front of our car.  The helper jack gets positioned at the front jacking point behind the front wheel.  Then the big guy on our team lifts the front fender up by hand enough for us to get the helper jack on the frame.  Once the helper jack maxes out in vertical travel we slide our nice race jack under the center engine support to actually lift the car off the ground. 

Likewise when lowering the car, we have to lower the front end onto bricks or the jack gets trapped underneath.  Then when the jack is removed, we push the car off of the bricks. 

The Jag looks soooooo long now that we've lowered it though.

Re: suspension mystery

Loren wrote:

Physics check...

When a spring fatigues due to repeated cycling from age or race use, does it lose spring rate?

No, it does not. As long as the thickness of the wire is the same and the diameter of the coils is the same, the spring rate will not change. Springs may sag, but they don't get softer.

Actually...

I've got some very good data that shows that highly stressed (>50% UTS in this case) steel coil springs can in fact lose spring rate as a function of cycles.  No one has ever provided a good explanation for why this may occur, so I made one up: how about reduction of spring wire cross-section due to micro-cracking?  Anybody?

In addition to the obvious change-in-free-length-when-cycled thing, springs also "creep" like plastics tend to do under constant load, particularly at any sort of elevated temperature.  That means that your car can get lower just sitting there.  Lovely.

Scott

Re: suspension mystery

Not a metallurgist (or a suspension engineer, for that matter), but I wonder if it's got something to do with the steel losing temper after all the repeated twisting action?

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: suspension mystery

Temper of a material doesn't effect stiffness, only strength.  Stiffness is also relatively constant with respect to alloy.  Carbon steels and alloy steels have basically the same Young's moduli because they are mostly iron.  Stainless is a bit different, probably because of the large fraction of chromium.

Not really on-topic, but there you go.

Scott

Re: suspension mystery

Did you tighten the suspension bolts with the car on jackstands, and the suspension hanging at full droop?  If so, all the control arm bushings have probably now 'settled', or more like had the rubber between the sleeves break so that the car now sits at what will be it's normal ride height.  Whenever you tighten the control arm bolts, make sure the car is sitting on the wheels, and not with the suspension at full droop.

Gene Beaird,
Pearland, Texas

You can learn a lot from a dummy,
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Pearland, Texas
ApexVinyl Race Team - 2011 Yee-Haw It's Lemons Texas IOE, 2012 Gater-O-Rama I Got Screwed

Re: suspension mystery

Mine keeps getting lower and lower too, but it only seems to happen while I'm in the car. (stuffs face with another cookie)

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