Topic: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

We are running a car at the Loudon Annoying and have a couple of tech questions.
Our cage builder does a lot of circle track and usually runs cage extensions into the engine bay. Anyone have any acceptable examples of this or is it not recommended?
Seat sliders: our team has a large delta for height. I know that at tech the inspectors shake the seat and any movement would fail inspection. I know that a bolted seat is preferred but we don’t have that option. Anyone have any advice of the best seat slider configuration?
For the back of the seat to the cage. Anyone have examples of how to make up for the large driver height delta?
I’ve suggested invasive bone extension surgery on a couple of my team members but I met some resistance.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

phaceplant09wrx3 wrote:

Our cage builder does a lot of circle track and usually runs cage extensions into the engine bay. Anyone have any acceptable examples of this or is it not recommended?

Any unintended chassis stiffening as a result of cage installation is always appreciated.  The problem is that your roundy round cage guy will build a circle track cage that will fail tech at Lemons.

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Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

I'm using custom brackets attached to the factory double locking sliders. Works great.

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Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

consider using a solid seat mount but have the tallest driver just a little bit close and then use foam to get the shortest driver up close enough. I would guess that we have around 6 inches in height difference and this is working for us. not moving the seat and the seat brace speeds things up during a driver change.

5 (edited by Mulry 2011-03-08 08:47 AM)

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

phaceplant09wrx3 wrote:

For the back of the seat to the cage. Anyone have examples of how to make up for the large driver height delta?

We have a high delta on that too. Our driver ranges go from full-forward on our seat sliders to full-reverse. We use the I/O Port adjustable seat back brace:

http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/m … ry_Code=IH

I know that a lot of other teams use this (or the similar AutoPower one) and it's passed tech every time in my car (5 races). Bear in mind that for your tallest driver, the brace may not be necessary for tech; the brace is required only if the seat is more than 6" from the seat back for your shortest driver. Cheers.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

Thanks all for the great responses on the seat issue.

TeamDFL wrote:
phaceplant09wrx3 wrote:

Our cage builder does a lot of circle track and usually runs cage extensions into the engine bay. Anyone have any acceptable examples of this or is it not recommended?

Any unintended chassis stiffening as a result of cage installation is always appreciated.  The problem is that your roundy round cage guy will build a circle track cage that will fail tech at Lemons.

Lets assume the roundy round guy has read and understood the Lemons rule book and cage guidelines.
Would putting a pipe through the fire wall (it will be patched and sealed according to the rules) be a reason for them to fail the car?

7 (edited by phaceplant09wrx3 2011-03-08 11:08 AM)

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

Example of what i am talking about:
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h223/frgtflrcn/189091_10150109753880852_536030851_6672762_5728588_n.jpg

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

you need more engine than that wink

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

Doug I wrote:

you need more engine than that wink

We were thinking peddle power was more reliable.
taking Ft Lbs seriously.

big_smile

10

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

as long as there is no holes in the dash it should be ok.  Make sure he also reads the rules on the firewall requirements when building it.  Shouldn't be a big deal to fix the firewall after the cage is put in, but be a pain on friday tech to get it done, and would definitely add a lot more stress.

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Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

phaceplant09wrx3 wrote:

Example of what i am talking about:
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h223/ … 8588_n.jpg

That is above and beyond the cage requirements and as long as it does not compromise the cage it is only strengthening for the chassis, and really the cage. Make sure the forward extensions weld to cage continuous front down tubes (T onto),  not into two piece tubes.


As far as the tube design you've shown, its over kill and a bit unnecessary. The tube from the roll cage should go to the back side of the strut tower. Then if, for some odd ball reason, you think you need to stiffen the front part of the chassis in front of the strut towers, weld a 45 degree down tube from the top of the strut tower to the front frame member. lighter, stronger and simpler than the bent tube design you have in the photo.

Now you ask why only to the back side of the strut tower?? Well, the suspension of the car and what is between it determines how the car handles. All that metal (body) hanging off the front and rear out past the strut tower is just window dressing and doesn't effect the cars performance (other than to add weight and slow it down). The engine if you look down at the engine mounts is usually mounted to the car pretty much inline with the strut tower, or the front cross member (which is in line with the strut tower). So the torque from the engine is also not effecting the front or rear of the car past the strut towers, just what is between the F&R strut towers. So there really is no reason to re-enforce the front chassis rails out forward, EXCEPT... for making the bumper stronger in the cash of a crash. Which some racing drivers/cars need.

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12 (edited by cleave 2011-03-08 12:13 PM)

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

Might be worth clarifying with the powers-that-be. I would be worried about the following rule:

3.31: OE Crush Structures: Modifications that reduce the size and/or effectiveness of OE crush structures--including but not limited to shortening or removing frame rails or unibody structures outside the wheelbase--are discouraged in the strongest possible terms. Cars with compromised OE crush structures are exceedingly likely to fail tech. Non-OE replacement crush structures are not an acceptable substitute; you and your stick welder ain't NHTSA.

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Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

I would check with Jay or with Evil Genius John before adding those tubes going forward, simply because of the new crush structure rule. I'd bet you'd be fine going to the back of the strut towers, but ahead of that is likely going to be a no-no. IMHO.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

Also, beyond worrying about passing tech, worry about whether or not it's safe for you in the event of a crash.  If you smack a wall at 70mph with those tubes in place, they're going to reduce the amount of impact that the front of the car would otherwise absorb.  Any unabsorbed impact is going to be transferred to the occupant of the car.  You *want* the car to get bent up in a bad accident, and defeating the crash structure seems like a bad idea to me.  I would leave them out, personally.  Even if it would pass tech.  Better to lose the car than the driver.

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Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

Thanks everyone for your input. No engine bay pipe. Check.

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

yeah, i agree with the guys on here. the most effective, and limit of a forward pipe run should be no further than the strut towers. there's some flexibility to how it's executed, but the important parts; 360 welds, spreader plates, sealing up the firewall effectively with METAL coverings have all been graced over by the others. forward of the suspension mount points is more or less a waste of metal in this series.

Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

Your picture supports the spirit of  the law, however you are infringing upon the letter of the law.  Go to the last vertical bar behind the bumper and cut off the horizontal.  That bar goes forward of the back of the crush zone!  When that is done, go to the horizontal above the shock tower and put in 2 bars on each side.  a "V" from the horizontal to just above the strut mounting point.  This will triangulatethe strut tower and make it more sturdy.  After you get the engine/trans back in, add a perpendicular bar between the "V's to add lateral support to the towers.  This is ALL behind the front crush zone, and will stabilize your front suspension.  The last thing you want is the car doing something different in each corner.  This is an old circle track practice, but the towers won't know if you are turning left or right!

Don't worry about things you have no control over!

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Re: Running bars into Engine Bay/ Seat sliders

most cicle track guys tie the cage in to the chassis to stiffen the chassis.

If its not broke fix it till it is...