Topic: Evaluate my first welds, please

In case I have to do some cage/tube welding, I would appreciate some feedback on my first weld attempt of a practice tube joint. All constructive criticism is good.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2265.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2266.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2267.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2268.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2269.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2270.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2271.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2272.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2273.jpg

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Not bad! I used to weld professionally, but I'm not certified, so maybe some pro's can chime in. I've seen worse from some that call themselves professional cage builders.. Looks like penetration is good. By the look of the weld, did you stick weld it? You can also cut through the tube and check the weld in profile. In my non-expert opinon, it looks like you are on the right track.

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

3 (edited by RobL 2009-07-30 04:49 PM)

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

I'd drive on that.  TIG or stick, I assume.  I also assume that those are not your first welds - they are your first tube joint welds.

As an aside, that's not the hard part.  You basically had ideal conditions - on a workbench and were able to move the piece around to get to where the weld needed to go.  Your next assignment will be to get the welds behind the dashbar...

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Weld two six inch pieces in a "tee"....then clamp in a vise and pound one arm with a sledge or club hammer until the tube splits or tears. That'll show if the heat affected zone next to the welds is weak. With mild steel shouldn't be a problem. It's also worth cutting a cross section, but your welds look as good as some pro stuff I've seen.

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

5 (edited by Spank 2009-07-30 05:32 PM)

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Actually, it's mig with gas. I've welded body panels using flux core, but after trying to run a few beads (about 4 inches total) on some 3/16" plate and setting the wire speed, that is my first attempt at welding anything thicker than sheet metal (which incidentally has been plug welds).

Cutting them apart is a good idea-- I'll do that and post results.

Yea, welding upside down sucks. I got pretty good at stitch welding with the flux core on rusty metal, but this gas shielded mig makes it all a ton easier!

Keep the feedback coming and I'll post a few cut-apart pics when I can.

--Spank

edit: yea, the heat is a good point. That's why I posted the blue tube. Not sure how hot/cherry I am supposed to get the tube or not get the tube while welding. My understanding is that when doubling back (or looping back as I did) the weld needs to be hot. If it cools, you need to backtrack some before pushing on to the raw joint.

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Spank, how about telling us your setup, i.e. equipment, machine settings, gas type and flow rate wire feed speed wire diameter etc.

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

not my welder-- but as far as I can tell, it's a Weldmark 140 (Says made by hobart) 0.023 wire, 75% Argon 25% CO2 bottle, power is max at #4 position, wire speed is more or less 30 on the position dial. I've moved the wire speed setting a minute amount back and forth if it pops or I start getting hold molten balls running off of it and onto the floor.

Still practicing. Got a certified TIG welder (who also knows his way around a mig) coming by tomorrow to weld as many joints as he can for me in a short amount of time, and also give me some in-person pointers. I still want your feedback, though.

--Spank

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

The weld looks good, but mighty "spattery" for Mig - that's why I thought Stick.... I'm surprised that welder had enough power for this weld, but looks like it. I used to have a similar small Miller mig that I used endlessly.. I always had the power and feed maxxed out. I've got a new Miller Syncrowave Tig now, but is nowhere as easy to use as the mig was...

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Lack of penetration is the biggest problem with home built cages in my non-certified opinion.  It looks like you did a pretty good job by the look of the inside.  A 120vac welder is borderline on welding .120 tubing to .120 tubing so I suggest you buy, borrow, or steal a 220v welder and try again.

http://www.ducttapemotorsports.com/
http://www.teamdfl.com
"I can see it now, a pile of nickels and all the glory of being a real race car driver."
Prepping the Red wReck for the 24 Hours of Lemons

10 (edited by Spank 2009-07-31 09:59 AM)

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Thanks DFL. The tubing is .095 DOM in 1.75"-- essentially building an FIA spec / NASA spec cage. Car as built from factory weighs just under 1300lbs. guessing stripped out and caged still under 1500 lbs

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

I agree, penetration is a major issue....I'm not certified either, but I was trained that proper joint preparation makes the difference...you can weld a battleship with a 110V welder, but you'd need properly vee'd joints grinding between passes and lots of time! Vee out the joints properly and the weld will penetrate through. The beauty of big power is tolerance for poor fit up and one pass welding....in theory if you used sleeved joints and did the prep work right you could braze a strong cage

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Are you racing a Lotus 7?

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

RobL wrote:

Are you racing a Lotus 7?

No shit, what the hell weighs 1300 lbs?

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

LTDScott wrote:
RobL wrote:

Are you racing a Lotus 7?

No shit, what the hell weighs 1300 lbs?

Golf cart?

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Oh, it's the Mini. I shoulda guessed.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

yea, it's a mini.

I didn't V the joint, just welded. Some of it was 1 pass circling back, some was maybe 2 passes.

I'll try V-ing it next.

Got some nice sunburn on my left bicep. Need to wear sleeves and some leather, me thinks.

How can you tell if it's penetrated enough without being able to see the inside? Just experience with the timing?

--Spank

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Spank wrote:

How can you tell if it's penetrated enough without being able to see the inside? Just experience with the timing?

Without destructive testing or scads of x-ray and ultrasonic  equipment, only the welder's (or inspector's) experience will tell.

http://www.ducttapemotorsports.com/
http://www.teamdfl.com
"I can see it now, a pile of nickels and all the glory of being a real race car driver."
Prepping the Red wReck for the 24 Hours of Lemons

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

they will hit suspect joints with a hammer.. so you can do the same before hand and be both confident it will pass their test and it will work in the even it's needed, but as everyone already said it does look pretty good.

you can use a drift of a piece of a 2x4 and a 2.5 sledge to test more than they have done in the past, they use a robber mallet.

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Spank, if it's a Mini, watch the door latches....a relatively minor hit will cause them to pop..even Mk 2 latches are marginal..also check the floor pan. if you have time, think about reinforcing the "tunnel" and the cross car seat mount box...the shell is stiff...if you weld small gussets between the cage and the a-pillars you improve the hell out of the strength...if you're running a single SU, make sure there's an air cleaner or baffle between it and the instrument cutout...if it backfires through the carb you can ignite the wiring there...and the Smiths mechanical oil pressure gauge is great as a leak source...if it rains, remember to bring a latex glove as a distributor cap cover...good luck out there

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

20 (edited by Spank 2009-08-02 08:23 AM)

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Gauges? Doors? There's nothing in the regs that says we need doors!

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/Spank226/Lemons/100_2278.jpg

...or a steering wheel, or an engine... I figure we won't have to worry about engine or tranny failure if we don't have an engine or tranny. We're going rickshaw style!

(can you believe we're 13 days away from the start line and it still looks like this!?)

As an aside, we're going to be using the padlock feature on the driver's door!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Mr_bean_car.jpg

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

jimeditorial wrote:

the Smiths mechanical oil pressure gauge is great as a leak source

You might have to ditch the mechanical oil pressure gauge. We looked into putting one in our car and were told by Jay that they'd prefer that there not be oil lines, even the small one for a gauge, in the cockpit.

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

I would say leave the settings on the welder just as you welded these two together.  I was AWS certified a couple of years ago and I haven't used it too much since then, but those joints look pretty good.  I am not a fan of flux core, but a 110 with gas will weld almost anything if it is set right.  Looks like you have plenty of penetration, just watch the amount of under-cutting to keep that penetration consistent.  This is usually done by slowing down a bit and staying in the puddle.  Good job though.

"Sharp as Bear Claws and Slicker Than Goose Shit"
Lab Rats Motorsports
1990 VW Jetta
Charlotte, NC

23 (edited by jimeditorial 2009-08-04 07:29 AM)

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Spank, is the image inverted or is it a RHD car? If your seat isn't bolted down, check out the toeboard stamping and the steering rack....you can flip the rack and pedal assembly and go LHD....Issigonis designed the car with export in mind...the odd cowl plugs let you flip the wiper assembly too...If you're stuck with an early "magic wand" box, consider a hook or bungee to hold the stick in place in fourth gear...and the bushings in the "dog bone" are really important! The engine has to have minimal movement or it will jump out of gear for sure....if it's an early car try to get the MK2 twin leading shoe front brakes...Cooper discs are no better. If the brakes are badly rusted DON'T try to adjust the brakes the conventional way the first time...the adjustment bolt will snap...pull the drum, grab the cams with Vise-Grips and break if free first...the square adjusters are butter soft and will strip easily without the square spanner. Can't remember if I mentioned this but if the rear sub is shot, you can cut away the trunk floor and run a bar across the top shock mounts then add cheap coilovers between bar and lower shock mount. Then you cut away the whole sub except the front bar and trailing arm pivots. Also, if you don't have the "official" mixture spanner, think about grinding down a cheap wrench into an open-end stub...speeds adjustment anytime...and think about the viscosity of the carb damper oil....5W might be ideal....I owned four Minis over the years before I decided to bleed over two seater British crapcans...Good for you guys in running a Mini!

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

TeamDFL wrote:

Lack of penetration is the biggest problem with home built cages in my non-certified opinion.  It looks like you did a pretty good job by the look of the inside.  A 120vac welder is borderline on welding .120 tubing to .120 tubing so I suggest you buy, borrow, or steal a 220v welder and try again.

I use a Lincoln 140A with 75-25 gas and it does very well on .120 tubing.  Heck I've welded 3/8" thick plate with it...using a vee-bevel technique of course.  I'd say your welds look too good for a "first time" too.  From some of the stuff I've seen at Lemons your welds look like NASCAR quality.

One tip...for better penetration use larger wire like 0.035 so the wire speed (amperage) can be set higher.  Also when you need to stop a bead to reposition yourself, take note in how you re-start it.  Strike the next arc about 1/4" away from the end of where you stopped, them move back on top of the end of the first bead.  When you get it right it will be hard to tell where you stopped and started and gove you a better joint as well.

Welding the tubes together is the easy part beacuse they are thick.  Welding the foot plates to the tin-foil thin floor pan is much more difficult.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Evaluate my first welds, please

Spank wrote:

Gauges? Doors? There's nothing in the regs that says we need doors!

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/ … 0_2278.jpg

...or a steering wheel, or an engine... I figure we won't have to worry about engine or tranny failure if we don't have an engine or tranny. We're going rickshaw style!

(can you believe we're 13 days away from the start line and it still looks like this!?)

As an aside, we're going to be using the padlock feature on the driver's door!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … an_car.jpg

Guages? We don't need no stinkin' guages!

drive it like it's sponsored