More Cage Advice (Page 1 of 2)

I think there is alot of mis-information about the 24 sq. in. plates being required, which they are not.  When the new rules came out I asked about it.  Here is a response from Jay:

from Jay to me, I have 4x4 plates:
"If you're in a situation where the plate does need to be extended, you can just butt a new section onto the edge of the existing plate and weld it all together--that's fine.

Note that the rule in question (3.1.4) says the 24-inch spec is "generally required" to meet the goal of the rule. You're not a dumb guy, and if you think the 4x4-inch plates you have now are sufficient to meet the purpose of the rule, you can always just leave them alone. Of course, ultimately the question isn't what YOU think, but rather what the inspector thinks, but I believe that if you look at it with an impartial eye, you should be able to see it like they will. A 4x4-inch plate in a really sensible location on really strong metal is probably not going to give them any heartburn."

Last edited by sawinatthewheel (2010-12-13 04:43 PM)

Jay's response to you does not eliminate the need for 24 sq inches, it just allows you to add to the existing plate to extend it to 24 inches.

I had the material, the time and the welder.

I added metal plate to all of my spreaders to meet the 24 inch minimum.

I did not want to even run the risk of failing tech and welding Friday night before the race.
This takes the pressure off.

KT

If  I were using a bolt-in cage, I would cut the bolt in plates off.
Weld the proper spreaders into the car and then weld the cage in.

Run the bolts through the connection points in the upper portion of the cage and weld the sleeves, too.

KT

WOW.

Please tell me this is NOT an acceptable way of doing this.  Do you guys realize what spreader plates do and how they work?  Because that is absolutely not how they work.  Just because you weld a plate next to the one taking the load absolutely does not mean it will take any load, and that perpendicular 1/2 welded plate is just....horrible.

I wouldn't be so blunt if it wasn't safety stuff, if you get all butthurt sorry, get over it, but that is a horrible interpretation of the rules.

Hate to say it, but Butt-welded plates are not disallowed - provided the welds are clean, have good penetration and no burn-through.
90 degree plates are the same.

John had this to say a while back:
The plates can be in different planes, welded together or bent.
and "if it's well done"

http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=7672

...in my eye, the back-brace spreader additions look nice, the rest of them look like the welds were not prepared, as in not "v" ground before fill-welding.
The hoop-to-spreader weld is pretty sketchy looking - a bit cold all the way around.

FYI:
~if butt-welds are bad, what about welding an 1-3/4 tube to a plate? (proper) Welding joins two metals in such a way as to make the junction of the two items (strength-wise) indistinguishable from the solitary piece. A properly done butt on plate is actually as strong if not stronger than the original piece.
~Weld certification is done using butt-welds... generally if the weld fails before the base metal, no cert. They also cut and analyze said weld for cracks and voids...
~Tube-to-tube in our case would require heat-normalizing to de-stress the areas *at* the weld, which is why tubes need sleeves instead of having butts. The line right next to a 'hot' weld cools and recrystallizes unevenly, and this crystalline structure creates a stress riser proven to be crack-prone.
~Flat-plate butts are supposed to be ground away in a "V"and then over-welded causing a larger heated area, which cools differently than a tube. They are also much easier to control re that ground-away and fill than Tube is.

That said, Gas mains and other pretty high risk pipes are butt-welded...

Stacking cold welds on top of each other =/= strong.

Did you cut into the welds to check them?  It blows my mind how people can make these extraordinary claims "My welds are the strongest part"...

I have a 10lb sledgehammer that could separate these.

No offense, but why is it that people who can't weld 'pretty' always say that?  Most people who can weld pretty always seem to know how to make a strong one as well.

Also stacking weld on top of weld on top of weld does not make it stronger.

we need to have another event, STAT.  there is a lot of welding dick being swung around in here.  oy.

My welder is bigger than yours....

No thanks.  I would like to encourage the OP to pay someone else to do this properly, the pictures are clear evidence that this is not done properly.

Properly welded plates will act as one.  Properly bent ERW cages will also work, however due to the stupidity of people nowadays who don't know their limits, ERW is banned by most sanctioning bodies.  For this same logic, and whats going on in this thread I don't understand why welded together baseplates aren't banned.

Did you really just bring up certified welders?  :rolls eyes:  I don't think anyone who has ever brought that up realizes that you are only certified to weld one thickness of one type of metal per certification.  /rant.  Know what you're talking about if you're going to put up a lame attempt to start an argument and be condescending.

Wait...  Yep - it is...