1 (edited by EyeMWing 2011-06-30 05:07 PM)

Topic: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

Not directly lemony, but it's for my parts runner (which has thus far done nothing but sit around for a year and consume parts in an attempt to get it road-legal).

Basically, my power brakes are broken. Pressing the pedal with vacuum applied results in a WHOOOOSH sound like air coming out of a bellows, and the brakes kinda sorta vaguely maybe applying some pressure. There's not enough brake pressure to actually lock up the wheels on asphalt, though. Shut off the engine and pump the brakes a few times, or yank the vacuum line off the booster and the brakes work just fine as manual brakes. After shutdown, there are still two "power assisted" pedal pumps in it.


All 4 corners bleed just fine - and the master cylinder cannot be bled directly without disconnecting the brake circuits.


The FSM says I should have blinkenlights if anything's actually wrong with the brake booster - I don't. It also says that if there were blinkenlights, I should bleed the brakes with the engine running and vacuum applied. Which I did anyway, and it didn't change anything.

So, WTF? Am I doing something wrong? Is this expected Chrysler homicidal behavior? Do I need to replace the stupid $4 check valve? Or do I need to suck it up and order a whole reman booster? Why does this truck hate me so much? Why can't I pass inspection with manual brakes and a big "INOP" placard hanging from the brake booster? That shit works for airlines.


This is particularly frustrating because this particular symptom set, as I understand how this vacuum-powered voodoo bullshit works, isn't even physically possible.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

Here's how to check your brake booster. Run the engine for a couple minutes to build vacuum. Turn it off. Pump the brake pedal 3 or 4 times til it gets hard and hold pressure on the pedal. Now start the motor. A good booster will let the pedal sink slowly as soon as the engine runs, if nothing happens the booster is bad.

Of course first check to make sure vacuum is getting to the booster. Those check valves rarely give problems but check for a crack by the hose nipple, etc. A new rebuilt booster should come with a new check valve. There should be a ton of vacuum at the hose, like 22" hg whatever the hell vacuum is measured in.

You shouldn't bleed the brakes with the engine running, don't know why but no one says to do it like that.

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

sergio wrote:

Here's how to check your brake booster. Run the engine for a couple minutes to build vacuum. Turn it off. Pump the brake pedal 3 or 4 times til it gets hard and hold pressure on the pedal. Now start the motor. A good booster will let the pedal sink slowly as soon as the engine runs, if nothing happens the booster is bad.

Works fine.

sergio wrote:

Of course first check to make sure vacuum is getting to the booster. Those check valves rarely give problems but check for a crack by the hose nipple, etc. A new rebuilt booster should come with a new check valve. There should be a ton of vacuum at the hose, like 22" hg whatever the hell vacuum is measured in.

There's plenty of vacuum at the booster.


sergio wrote:

You shouldn't bleed the brakes with the engine running, don't know why but no one says to do it like that.

Dodge Factory Service Manual via Mitchell OnDemand. It sounded pretty damned dumb to me, but, hey, vacuum is still voodoo as far as I'm concerned.


Once I finish getting the new rubber on it tomorrow, I'll make some dragstrip runs and verify that it's still refusing to lock up. I still have a very hard time believing that even early 90's Chrysler could intentionally make a braking system as numb as this one, though.


Only other similar case I've found on the internets was a guy with a hairline crack in a caliper piston and the booster allowed him to apply so much extra pressure over just bare-footing it that he was forcing fluid out the crack. I can't find any evidence of such, and I just replaced the rear wheel cylinders (and some of the hoses, and most of the hardline) too, so it doesn't appear to be coming out anywhere else.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

I just went through a maddening time with brakes on my tow vehicle- which sounds awfully similar to what you're talking about.  In my case, the vehicle in question is a 3/4 ton Dodge W250 Cummuns TD pickup.  I ended up having to replace both rear wheel cylinders, a good chunk of the metal lines, all the flex hoses, and the master cylinder.  Even now, the brakes aren't what I'd call "Great" or even "Good" but they are definitely "Passable".  I was going near mad running around the vehicle bleeding it.  The brakes would seem to have good pedal and then I'd crank the truck up and the pedal would go right to the floor.

A couple of things to try; you can tell me "Mike, go to hell, I've already tried that!" but I'm just trying to think of everything I went through...

-On Chryslers, bleed the passenger rear wheel first, then driver rear, then passenger front, then driver front.  Makes sure whichever wheel you're bleeding is in the air and higher than the others, so the air goes towards it.

-Do you have ABS?  My truck has rear ABS, and there is a bleeder on the abs valve (located in the rear of the truck, in the frame rails).  Bleed that first.  Check that, bleed the Master cylinder first, (disconnect the two lines, buy two 12" long lines, screw them into the MC, bend them and dunk them into a vat of brake fluid, fill the MC, pump until no bubbles come out, reconnect the vehicle brake lines)

-Do your front flex hoses connect using a banjo fitting?  Did you replace the crush washers? 

-Are the rear brakes drum?  If yes, are they adjusted?  Drum brakes with too much shoe-drum clearance can cause a sinking feeling in the pedal. 

Basically what I've found is that a power booster can often exaggerate any problems with the rest of the brake system, so even if the brakes feel "OK" with no booster, they may be pretty marginal.  Or there may be a tiny leak, like you mention. 

I've never heard of bleeding with the engine on.  I have heard some Chrysler products require power bleeding, see a mechanic, etc, but I managed my truck just fine after going through everything above.  I plan on replacing the front calipers at some point soon, because the originals are 20+ years old, replacements are cheap, and  I want to install some towing-rated pads anyway.

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5 (edited by Team Infinniti 2011-07-01 06:40 AM)

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

I am a master wrench for a living.
Recently I came across a used low mile 95 Aurora with a glove box packed full of service records, this car has been  lemonade all its life,it was a nice car and it looked like a easy fix and flip.
When it came time to address the sinking brake pedal, it had classic symptoms of a bad master, intermittent pedal sinking underfoot at traffic lights and inconsistent pedal apply height and would barely stop.

1) 4 wheel ABS chunk was leaking bad so get a junk yard unit, better but no cigar.
2) Replace Master #1 with a junk yard unit, yielded better brakes but no way safe.
3) Master #2 warrantied and make damn sure there's good pedal on the donor car, no change..
4) ABS chunk warranty because of trac control lights and still crap brakes.

Now the car stops well but the pedal still sinks to the floor.  (with hindsight was now twitchy and could too easily put your head thru the windshield)

Inspect all 4 calipers, find some rusty slides, no real improvement.
Cap master then ABS output and get a high stiff pedal, so its not hydraulic bleed off.

Finally the other master tech and I decide to drive the car with the vacuum plugged, instant consistency!! We did all the pump till hard then start  and other things discussed and it passed em all so this was a last desperate move.

The friggin booster vacuum valve was somehow damaged causing a overboost.
Did it need the other things? Yes but it wanted a booster as well.

Lesson: don't rule out the booster but don't blame it first.

Edit

Lesson 2: The car is still a lemon after fixing multiple systems. I admit defeat, this thing is a endless supply of tiny little things failing... The new guy still calls......

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
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Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

I just checked, and it does in fact now stop properly from about 25mph (the best runup I can get on the neighborhood street and still have room to brake without running off into the farm at the end. If I started in the farm and did a runup towards the pavement, I could probably hit about 50 - but then I'd be pointing a potentially-not-stopping 4000lb missile at a neighbor's house) and the front brakes can totally hold the truck at WOT (and it does a wicked one-legged burnout - so says the absolutely trashed piece of shit spare tire I had on that corner).

I suppose this is consistent, since some parts of the brake system hadn't been replaced at last testing.

So the only real problem seems to be that there's no pedal feel whatsoever. In my opinion, this makes it 'safe' enough to pass inspection. Only problem is that inspection is done by Low-Rent Mechanics who are going to try to sell me brakes (pads and calipers, no doubt, completely ignoring the actual problem) at Hostage-Markup and get into an argument with me about "I can't let you drive away with that truck to fix it yourself"


Informationally, here's the butcher's bill on the brakes thus far:
- New RF brake hose (Originally missing)
- 2x rear wheel cylinders (originals leaked like crazy)
- RF brake hardline (original was cut. With dikes.)
- RR brake hardline (original had to be cut to remove wheel cylinder)
- LR brake hardline (original had to be cut to remove wheel cylinder)
- Pads, shoes all around

That is very interesting about the overboost problem, though. I'll have to keep that in mind if I wind up with some worthless asshat doing the inspection.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

I had Issues with my oldsmobile for about a year or so trying to stop from slow speeds after a recent brake work.

I'd be sitting in traffic and everyone would move forward a little so I'd ease up on the pedal to role but when I wanted to stop again I had to really muscle the brake pedal to stop. I had enough of it once I tapped the trailer hitch on a pick-up in front of me one day. I tore the front end down discovered the pre-mo brakes Tire Discounters installed were of the the heavy-duty system which my car was not equipped (pads and rotors are of a slightly bigger dimension).

They some how squeezed the HD pads onto the light-duty system frame work but got the correct rotors (somehow, per the size that suppose to be on the car). needless to say there was an ugly curve to the backing plates and very little pad contact as well as scary as hell braking at low speeds.

In went a fresh set of pads and rotors installed by me and all braking issues was solved. Just recently I replaced my brakes again... so almost 6 years and somewhere around 50-60k later after that screw up was resolved. I managed to survive well and long on my installed setup versus what the "professionals" at TD had installed.

I know the story probably doesn't help but what I was getting at is check your rotors and pads if they were not installed by you or a good friend with a working knowledge. If a Professional can scew them up like they did on mine you may want to take a peek at your own.

8 (edited by Team Infinniti 2011-07-01 03:27 PM)

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

You mention"So the only real problem seems to be that there's no pedal feel whatsoever."

I forgot to mention I experienced the same thing, but carefully go over the rear brakes again.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

someone may have mentioned this, but i dont like to read (its on a long list of things i dont like to do) so i'll spit it out.  have you had anyone watch the rubber sections of hose while you push the brake?  even new ones.  if they have gotten weak or were produced incorrectly, they can swell as you push the pedal, causing a spongy and inconsistent pedal.  it doesnt happen alot, but i have seen it happen.  just a possibility, however slight.

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10 (edited by EyeMWing 2011-07-01 07:35 PM)

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

Double-checked the rear today (and by double-checked I mean I took it all apart and put it back together again). That means it's definitely down to either 'designed by an idiot' or 'overboosted brakes' - I'm going to err on the side of not believing for a god damned minute that anyone involved in designing the 1st gen Dodge Dakota had the slightest idea what they were doing. If The Man doesn't like my brakes, I guess I'll cough up the $100 for a new booster (because god knows if I start digging in the junkyards I'll just end up with other problems)

Or maybe I'll figure out how to mount the MC straight to the firewall and pass it off as 'Power brakes? OPTIONAL EXTRA!' (and for extra authenticity, I'll delete the power steering pump)

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

Have you looked at the splitter/combo valve? Have someone pump the brakes with your finger on the rubber capped ends to feel if the slide is moving.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

12 (edited by widgetsltd 2011-07-18 04:39 PM)

Re: F'n power brakes: How do they work?

If this is an early-90's Dakota with rear wheel ABS (RWAL), then you could have a failure inside the RWAL valve unit.  If the dump valve in the unit is not sealing well, fluid will sneak past the leaky valve into the accumulator every time you hit the brakes.  It can feel like air in the system or an internally-leaking master cylinder.  Here's how you test for this problem:  find the aluminum RWAL valve block under the hood near the master cylinder.  You know that you have the correct part (not the combination valve) because the RWAL unit has 4 wires on it and a total of 2 solenoids.  Remove the rubber cap from the accumulator end, then insert a straightened paper clip or short screwdriver in the hole until it bottoms against the back of the accumulator piston.  Have someone step on the brake pedal and hold.  If the paper clip moves outward, then you have an internal leak in the RWAL unit which is allowing fluid into the accumulator.  You do not need to have the engine running or the wheels turning to make this check.  The dump valve cannot be replaced individually; you have to buy the RWAL valve block.

NOTE:  This failure mode seems particular to the aluminum RWAL units.  The older, iron units (torpedo shaped) don't seem to be prone to this particular failure.

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