Re: I think a stupid cage question
What kind of car is it?
It is a 1997 Cavalier with a very checkered past (not checkered flags!)
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → I think a stupid cage question
What kind of car is it?
It is a 1997 Cavalier with a very checkered past (not checkered flags!)
Wow.... They actually ran that on a race track?
Yes, it has recently raced in Chumps that way. per the Chumps log book it ran Iowa on 8/25/12, TWS on 12/7/12, and Hallett on 3/15/2013. We got it with a severely bent front strut, a bad ball joint, a total rat's nest of (mis)wiring and countless other problems we sorting out in addition to the "roll cage".
That cell install won't pass. They want to see a cage around the perimeter of the cell. Yours is just hanging from sheet metal.
This is a good forum, all this info has helped -- We will also be fixing the fuel cell install per everyone's suggestions.
just sent you the facebook info for a welder/cage fabricator I know in Aurora via the Lemons email.
We did get in touch with the guy in Aurora, but it didn't pan out, he hurt his back and can't work for a while. So still looking...
Scotty wrote:Wow.... They actually ran that on a race track?
Yes, it has recently raced in Chumps that way. per the Chumps log book it ran Iowa on 8/25/12, TWS on 12/7/12, and Hallett on 3/15/2013. We got it with a severely bent front strut, a bad ball joint, a total rat's nest of (mis)wiring and countless other problems we sorting out in addition to the "roll cage".
That's surprising. I would figure with their larger rule set, Chump would be at least as strict on safety as Lemons.
I'm actually not even being sarcastic.
I hope you didn't pay over $100 for that car? I've seen the car in person and it is scetchy as hell. I don't know how in the hell it got through tech inspection and it ran like shit. Last time I saw it I think a wheel had fallen off and it was on fire.....
riley62 wrote:Scotty wrote:Wow.... They actually ran that on a race track?
Yes, it has recently raced in Chumps that way. per the Chumps log book it ran Iowa on 8/25/12, TWS on 12/7/12, and Hallett on 3/15/2013. We got it with a severely bent front strut, a bad ball joint, a total rat's nest of (mis)wiring and countless other problems we sorting out in addition to the "roll cage".
That's surprising. I would figure with their larger rule set, Chump would be at least as strict on safety as Lemons.
On balance, I would say that Chump is less strict---maybe insurance differences, maybe related to the higher prevalence of really slow cars in Lemons, maybe just a difference of opinion. Most of the difference in the size of the rulebook is ChumpCar codifying stuff that is unwritten or unregulated in Lemons. The things that I can think of, offhand, where ChumpCar is more strict on safety are window nets, some aspects regarding fuel cells (required SFI or FIA rating, required firewall), minimum time for pit stops where fuel is added, and the requirement for fire systems next year. Lemons cage requirements are more strict (minimum spreader plate area, minimum tube size for some cars, minimum helmet clearance) and Lemons seat requirements are more strict.
Looks pretty crappy,
Get a real seat! A Kirkey drag race seat will not pass Lemons roadrace tech. A good seat can save your life.
That seat is fine. It will just need the seat back brace and headrest reinforcement. Its the same seat we run.
I hope you didn't pay over $100 for that car? I've seen the car in person and it is scetchy as hell. I don't know how in the hell it got through tech inspection and it ran like shit. Last time I saw it I think a wheel had fallen off and it was on fire.....
Well, like I said we are new, so yes, we paid too much. And yes, the car has been flogged hard. I don't know about the fire part though, no evidence of that so far!
FJ40Jim wrote:Looks pretty crappy,
Get a real seat! A Kirkey drag race seat will not pass Lemons roadrace tech. A good seat can save your life.
That seat is fine. It will just need the seat back brace and headrest reinforcement. Its the same seat we run.
I might like to see some pictures of how you have your's braced so we do it correctly. Any chance you can send some?
you need some sort of brace within 6" of the seat back (around the shoulder area) that will prevent the seat as a whole from falling backwards in the car if you are hit from behind. this can be a standard cage element (harness bar) an additional cage element (we have a pseudo harness bar before and below our actual one), or a plate on a stick something like this
i, personally, am not a fan of this sort of brace, because i do not like having a metal post pointing at my spine, but it is a legal and functional option.
futhermore, the headrest portion of the seat must not be very flexible in relation to the rest of the seatback. many metal seats will bend fairly easily at the harness holes, and that can be dangerous. if the headrest section is weak (grab it at the top and try to push the car back and forth), you either need to reinforce the seat itself (tough for the novice to do well), or you need to have a headrest backer that is similar to the seat backer described above.
the seat brace is allowed to be up to 6" away from the seat. I cannot say if the headrest backer is allowed such a clearance.
i don't know if this is legal, but i thought it looked like an interesting start of a solution. it retains the seat, and with a little more metal against the back of the seat at the harness hole, would do a decent job of stiffening the headrest.
i, personally, am not a fan of this sort of brace, because i do not like having a metal post pointing at my spine, but it is a legal and functional option.
If you are worried about the metal tube pointed at your spine, add a spreader plate. Add a 12x4" plate of ~.120 Aluminum or .060" Steel to spread the point load of the back brace over a bigger area of the seat back. This is probably a good idea for anyone with a fiberglass or carbon fiber seat.
i don't know if this is legal, but i thought it looked like an interesting start of a solution. it retains the seat, and with a little more metal against the back of the seat at the harness hole, would do a decent job of stiffening the headrest.
This is flimsy shit. The concept is OK, move the hard support closer to the seat and meet the under 6" rule. But this is just a flimsy piece of aluminum clamped to the harness bar, by a exhaust clamp. This aluminum will buckle like paper if loaded. Think square or round tube for the brace with a spreader plate at the seat and some good bolted, pinned, welded connection to the harness (horizontal) Bar.
psychoboy wrote:
i, personally, am not a fan of this sort of brace, because i do not like having a metal post pointing at my spine, but it is a legal and functional option.If you are worried about the metal tube pointed at your spine, add a spreader plate. Add a 12x4" plate of ~.120 Aluminum or .060" Steel to spread the point load of the back brace over a bigger area of the seat back. This is probably a good idea for anyone with a fiberglass or carbon fiber seat.
nope, still not a fan:
from the 24 hour race last summer
a bigger plate might have not torn at all, or it might have just torn a bigger hole. either way, i'm not comfortable with it.
That's not a very big plate.
nope, still not a fan:
I saw that damage up close. The "impaler" plate was too small, but lets not discount the seat type composition. That was a perfect mismatch of bad ideas. there is a big difference between what was suggested a 12x4 plate vs. the 4x4ish that was pictured as prompting the rule change.
I think 4" tall plate all the way across the seat is overkill, but again it depends on the seat and the mount.
It is also a Corbeau... which isn't very high on my list of viable seat options.
psychoboy wrote:nope, still not a fan:
I saw that damage up close. The "impaler" plate was too small, but lets not discount the seat type composition. That was a perfect mismatch of bad ideas. there is a big difference between what was suggested a 12x4 plate vs. the 4x4ish that was pictured as prompting the rule change.
I think 4" tall plate all the way across the seat is overkill, but again it depends on the seat and the mount.
as i noted, a larger plate might not have torn at all, or might have torn a bigger hole.... either way, i'd rather a bar across my shoulderblades than a post pointed at my spine.
but...so long as posts are legal, we should do what we can to advise people of what issues they can cause. a bigger spreader plate is probably always better than a smaller one. IMHO, a crossbar is always better than a post.
but...so long as posts are legal, we should do what we can to advise people of what issues they can cause. a bigger spreader plate is probably always better than a smaller one. IMHO, a crossbar is always better than a post.
Bars are harder for teams who need to move the seat around. We use a post because our cage is too far away, and we need to move the seat between drivers. Though after seeing that picture i think i'm increasing the size of our plate. We're running that same seat.
I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that the suggested installation for the "post pointing at your spine" is that it should terminate in a plate that is at least as wide as the shoulder-width area of your seat.
Please round off the corners of that can opener.... I mean plate.
And make the plate thinner, so it will flex/buckle somewhat, rather than just ramming through the seat & spine. Having a 1/4" thick armor steel plate pointed at an .080" thick aluminum seat is a bad idea.
psychoboy wrote:but...so long as posts are legal, we should do what we can to advise people of what issues they can cause. a bigger spreader plate is probably always better than a smaller one. IMHO, a crossbar is always better than a post.
Bars are harder for teams who need to move the seat around. We use a post because our cage is too far away, and we need to move the seat between drivers. Though after seeing that picture i think i'm increasing the size of our plate. We're running that same seat.
We have the same issue. the main hoop in our civic is up against the rear seat ledge, and even my over 6 foot tall ass can't get my back near the harness bar. if we pull the seat up for our shortest driver, he's a foot away from the bar.
so, I bent a new bar that my shoulders hit and welded it in front of and slightly below the harness bar. our short driver is still within 6" of it, and nothing is bolted to the seat.
We did get the entire cage torn out and re-done by a professional cage builder. It looks much better, and we are hoping to have a good time, our race is this weekend. Quick question, our fuel lines are rubber, and we use the standard hose clamps from auto parts store. The rubber hoses go about two feet where they run into the steel lines that were stock to the car. I saw some pics on these forums with braided steel lines and anodized fittings, do we have to get that stuff? Or will our regular fuel lines work? Thanks again for the help.
Are you talking about rubber lines under the hood, or rubber lines coming from the fuel cell? I'm pretty sure the lines from the fuel cell do have to use metal braid and AN fittings, but someone else will have to give you details on that.
Rubber lines under the hood are fine if that's what the car came stock with, but you should definitely inspect the lines and replace any that are old, cracked, or questionable in the slightest. Fuel injection line is more expensive, but it's thicker and stronger than regular fuel line. You may want to look into non-marring hose clamps (without the slots that dig into the rubber when tightened), but they're not required. Make damn sure that the lines aren't going to contact anything hot or abrasive. Use a metal fuel filter. If you absolutely must see the filter media, then use one with glass and be extra careful that it isn't flopping around. Don't use the plastic filters. Although the lines shouldn't be so long that they flop around, they should also have enough slack to allow for movement between the engine and chassis.
If the rubber lines are outside of the passenger compartment you should be fine. If they are inside the passenger compartment they should be sturdier stuff or encased in conduit or both.
On rubber fuel hose: Goodyear makes a lined hose which meets SAE J30R9 spec that's the best I have ever used. Caution: use this ONLY with 'beaded' metal line, not barbed! Making a beaded connection is easy; use a compression fitting to crimp the 'olive' onto the metal line, then remove the fitting. The 'olive' makes a great bead fitting. If you want, you can either leave the fitting nut on or split it and take it off.
http://www.goodyearep.com/productsdetail.aspx?id=5144
You still need to encase this type fuel line in metal if it runs inside the drivers' compartment.
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