Topic: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Fairly compact recap of both days from the Fiat point of view, written up by our race mechanic Bernice...who thankfully didn't have a lot to do this race...

Lemons Day 1: http://xwebforums.org/showthread.php?t=6133
Lemons Day 2: http://xwebforums.org/showthread.php?t=6150

Pretty sure the motor is a goner tho...she can only be push started (thanks to those who helped!!!), catch can was nearly full of sump oil, and I think we may have floated a valve or lost a ring, or both - certainly smoked both front rotors.  But whaddaya want from stock components (no b*llshit guys, stock parts).

We got nothing but good comments over our free-paint barn-booth respray makeover.  But got as many dirty looks as well.  It was an interesting social experiment to see what putting a pretty-dress on would do...yet to be seen if it stays on.

We really had a blast - despite any b*tching, I still think Lemons is the best racing around.

Mental gears already turning over what/where we go for our next race, and we'll be running in 2010!  We'll be looking for you, Hurling Moss!   (GREAT dicing with you guys, lots of fun!)

Have a nice day!!

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Cool write up... the Uberbird is a 6 though, not a five.

Uberbird!

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

FatBraff wrote:

Cool write up... the Uberbird is a 6 though, not a five.

Of the Fiat team, the UBird was our favorite.  Sorry to get it wrong.

One of our crew supports an SCCA Mercury Cyclone (9.0L, >900bhp) - so the Superbird is much admired. smile

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

cmice wrote:
FatBraff wrote:

Cool write up... the Uberbird is a 6 though, not a five.

Of the Fiat team, the UBird was our favorite.  Sorry to get it wrong.

One of our crew supports an SCCA Mercury Cyclone (9.0L, >900bhp) - so the Superbird is much admired. smile

Awesome, thanks for the comment!

Uberbird!

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Update on our motor - figure some good automotive carnage is a great way to start the morning....

Engine coming out of Bernice's Saab for teardown...
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_ABft8zDI/AAAAAAAAE3s/sWK0HSvqLvM/s400/Engine%20out%20of%20SAAB.jpg

Flywheel turning blue, means some overheating.  The clutch started to get slow to return early Sunday - we think it was heat related.  This says it's likely.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_ABntIszI/AAAAAAAAE3w/F_CPzUnHwMg/s400/Post%20LeMons%20TH%20flywheel_2009.jpg

Flywheel bolt holes starting to ovalize, meaning the flywheel was trying to shear off.  We put dowel-pins in the crank and flywheel as a safety measure.  Well worth the effort.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_ACG5UIgI/AAAAAAAAE4Y/FIzQ5KExdP4/s400/Post%20LeMons%20TH%20flywheel%20bolt%20holes_2009.jpg

This is what happens when you DON'T pin the flywheel, and you do shear off the bolts.  You get to cut the end of the crank off for use as a drililng fixture so you can put dowel pins in the next crank and flywheel.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_ACcQC0uI/AAAAAAAAE34/o-K3wqGHTys/s400/FIAT_sohc%20crank%2C%20failed%20flywheel%20bolts_sm.jpg

Piston #1 - conspicuously missing half the top ring...
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_ACeLaIvI/AAAAAAAAE4k/IqSCT9PCNOE/s400/Lemons%20engine%2C%20Piston%23%201.jpg

Piston #2 - started to melt and stick to the bore...
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_ACsgzCPI/AAAAAAAAE4o/vkHpXifPxHo/s400/Lemons%20engine%2C%20Piston%23%202.jpg

Piston #3 - also starting to melt...2 and 3 are inboard of the engine, and therefore run hotter.  We also found cracks in our exhaust manifold on #2 and #3 cylinders, probably leaning out the mixture, leading to further heating.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_AC5k4ZYI/AAAAAAAAE4s/LbuH-k5LpD0/s400/Lemons%20engine%2C%20Piston%23%203.jpg

Piston #4 - more top-ring hyjinx- half missing, other half cracking.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_ADKrCcQI/AAAAAAAAE40/rJw4r1ZQpeM/s400/Lemons%20engine%2C%20Piston%23%204.jpg

Bottom end - crank journals look clean, maybe we can save that.  Block will have to be bored if we're going to re-use it - bores are toast.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Sx_ADRR9BwI/AAAAAAAAE4M/1kF0U4BC4Sk/s400/Post%20LeMons%20Bottom%20end_2009.jpg

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

cmice wrote:

One of our crew supports an SCCA Mercury Cyclone (9.0L, >900bhp) - so the Superbird is much admired. smile

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/12/Infineon_Cyclone_807.jpg

Do you mean this Cyclone?

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Great writeups and good comments from the X1/9 folks. Hell, ANY comments from X1/9 folks are good. I thought they were extinct!

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

@Nick - just shows we're breaking stuff!  I'm actually very happy the little buggar held together to the finish - and the lack of smoke was surprising too.  But we were seriously down on power towards the end, so we knew something bad was happening - and being down on power when you don't have a lot to start with is really not good.

@Judge Phil - could be that's the one - if it's got a Devils Canyon Brewing logo on it somewhere, that's the one.  That car is just unreasonable.

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

cmice wrote:

@Judge Phil - could be that's the one - if it's got a Devils Canyon Brewing logo on it somewhere, that's the one.  That car is just unreasonable.

How many 900-horsepower Cyclones can there be in Northern California? I took that shot at a track day at Infineon about a year ago, and would have given the Mercury the Coolest Car On The Track award... if not for this thing. Only 500 horsepower, but totally street legal!

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/12/DSC_4066-UQ.JPG

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Great stuff!  Your team is full of some of the friendliest folks at Lemons, and we were stoked to see you finish.

TST, fool.

It's a Bunny.  With a pancake.  On its head.  Really, is it that tough?

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Excellent documentary, thanks for the read.

Just to clear some things up, Weinerschmoker Car #30 had a 92 325 m50 non-vanos motor in it. Not much more power than the m20 that was in it before, but still puts them slightly over-budget at current market prices hence their penalty laps.

Also Uberbird was a 6 series!

Barbarian Motor Works
-#88 '86 325e Team Charity Case *RIP*
-#88 '89 325is Baby Blue Babyz *re-themed*
-#84 '89 325is Panzer Tank *CURRENT*

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Loved the X1/9, I megasquirted my roommate's 81 desert-rat car and its pretty fun to drive.

Team Dai Hard Home Page

1989 Daihatsu Charade

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

It was great racing with you guys out there..............

I am VERY impressed at the X19......  I was skeptical that it wouldn't last...but it held up very well...far better than our 928 "estate".....  I would have to say your engine "carnage" is WORSE than ours ....WOW its amazing it lasted as long as it did....

Great write up and thanks for all the kind words of our 928 estate team!

We will be back for Infineon and I look forward to racing with you guys again!!

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Oh - and the headgasket was f*x0red as well...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Syh8HbKJI5I/AAAAAAAAE7k/ceY4E7swydk/s400/deadgasket.jpg

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

djcommie wrote:

Loved the X1/9, I megasquirted my roommate's 81 desert-rat car and its pretty fun to drive.

We considered MS for about 30 seconds, and it would be far easier/cheaper to graft the efi system from a working scrapyard car than to try and get MS working on this.  Maybe the throttle body setup from a Dodge Omni or a Suzuki Swift.

In the end, the Keihin carbs have been dead reliable without all those pesky sensors and connectors to fail.  As long as the air moves, they squirt fuel.  And the individual runners do a lot for head flow and torque.

On the engine, we've got a few spares, each was a freebie - for a reason, of course.  For example, we've got good pistons in another block, but that engine lost a thrust bearing and the crank had torn into the block.

So we're picking parts from here and there to piece together another motor.

Never fear, we'll be raging at Sears.  Possibly as the "Fixed It AGAIN, Tonys" wink

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

16 (edited by cmice 2009-12-15 11:27 PM)

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Video of our ride desperately trying start, the X is usually a one-button start kinda affair.  We're farting so much compression out the catch-can, it won't go.  Push-start to the rescue...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL-As9S51Og

...Bernice, our head-wrench, is sad.  Needs a sit-down.

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

17 (edited by Steve W 2009-12-16 01:21 PM)

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

cmice wrote:

Oh - and the headgasket was f*x0red as well...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5h6CHobrkvk/Syh8H … gasket.jpg

snap!

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4111/headgasket.jpg

That was our 2nd gasket of T-hill

Chotus! Chotus! Chotus! Chotus!

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Steve W wrote:

That was our 2nd gasket of T-hill

DOH!  Is this the B-Team car??

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

Yup,
One on Saturday after about 6 hours (our thermostat disintegrated and jammed our water pump = overheat)

One on Sunday after about 6 hours (the overheat warped the head slightly)

Chotus! Chotus! Chotus! Chotus!

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

cmice wrote:
djcommie wrote:

Loved the X1/9, I megasquirted my roommate's 81 desert-rat car and its pretty fun to drive.

We considered MS for about 30 seconds, and it would be far easier/cheaper to graft the efi system from a working scrapyard car than to try and get MS working on this.  Maybe the throttle body setup from a Dodge Omni or a Suzuki Swift.;)

Well, MAP based TBI/MPEFI uses volumetric efficiency tables to calculate airflow, using something from a completely different engine just plain wouldn't work properly


MS is great, only things I did was install EDIS (stock dist was wacky), plus the vacuum advance line into MS, a Daihatsu idle-up air bypass for fast-idle, and put a $15 GM IAT sensor into the stock air boot. Otherwise its all stock injectors, coolant temp sender and engine.

If you want some more info, I have plenty of pictures and info I'd be glad to share on it!

Team Dai Hard Home Page

1989 Daihatsu Charade

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

djcommie wrote:

Well, MAP based TBI/MPEFI uses volumetric efficiency tables to calculate airflow, using something from a completely different engine just plain wouldn't work properly

People said the moto carbs wouldn't work either - but they do. wink


djcommie wrote:

If you want some more info, I have plenty of pictures and info I'd be glad to share on it!

Sure!  If not for the Lemons car, for another project.

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

cmice wrote:
djcommie wrote:

Well, MAP based TBI/MPEFI uses volumetric efficiency tables to calculate airflow, using something from a completely different engine just plain wouldn't work properly

People said the moto carbs wouldn't work either - but they do. wink


djcommie wrote:

If you want some more info, I have plenty of pictures and info I'd be glad to share on it!

Sure!  If not for the Lemons car, for another project.

Well, send me an email and I'll get something together. Funny thing, the Fiat loves super-advanced timing, I run like 39 degrees of advance a lot of the time. I think I can actually turbo it with some reasonable limits left on the injector duty cycles, too. 143cc injectors!


Bike carbs working isn't that surprising, the lack of vacuum that bikes make might be made up for the swept volume per cylinder so you might have 2 non-correlated factors helping each other out smile

Team Dai Hard Home Page

1989 Daihatsu Charade

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

djcommie wrote:

Well, send me an email and I'll get something together. Funny thing, the Fiat loves super-advanced timing, I run like 39 degrees of advance a lot of the time. I think I can actually turbo it with some reasonable limits left on the injector duty cycles, too. 143cc injectors!

We're running 38 degrees fixed timing.  We've taken out both the mechanical and vacuum advance.

We've talked about a turbo, as it's easily done.  For a street car, it's fine.  But the pistons would melt (faster) under race conditions.  Not to mention the reliability problems of oil and coolant plumbing.  We're gonna just keep it n-a, and drop weight instead.

I'll figure out how to shoot you an email separately.

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

cmice wrote:
djcommie wrote:

Well, send me an email and I'll get something together. Funny thing, the Fiat loves super-advanced timing, I run like 39 degrees of advance a lot of the time. I think I can actually turbo it with some reasonable limits left on the injector duty cycles, too. 143cc injectors!

We're running 38 degrees fixed timing.  We've taken out both the mechanical and vacuum advance.

We've talked about a turbo, as it's easily done.  For a street car, it's fine.  But the pistons would melt (faster) under race conditions.  Not to mention the reliability problems of oil and coolant plumbing.  We're gonna just keep it n-a, and drop weight instead.

I'll figure out how to shoot you an email separately.

I agree with the turbo-boost ideas...yes they make for a more powerful car WHILE its runs...but the added stress to an already tired engine is never a good idea...but there are a few teams that make it work...like the 5 series BMW and the turbo miata (batman)....so it can be done...just takes more work to make it right

With that said I DO have an $50 Eaton M90 supercharger lying around begging to be installed on the 928 "estate"....madmax style of course sticking out fo the hood......do I need another 100hp.....no...would it make the car less reliable (not exactly a strong point now)..YES....but damm it would be COOL

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Thill writeup from the Friendly Fiat Folks

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv221/against_it/MadMaxBlower.gif

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least