Topic: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

This is me on Saturday about 23 laps into the race. It seems my reactions were a bit slow when our car started to slide in the carousel turn.
I was fortunate to avoid sliding into the wall on the inside of the turn.
Not sure if it was a smart thing to do but Pinewood Dirtbags #242 was right behind me and stopped his car so he was blocking traffic for me.
I walked over to their pits later that day and thanked him profusely!
Their #484 truck had just been towed in from being bitten by that same wall..

https://youtu.be/slBlR8wI0qw

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

Obviously, glad everything worked out. The analysis on why the spin started is accurate. However, you never, ever got on the brake.

When that "point of no return" in the car's spin arrives in the future, please lock down the wheels.

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

Magical,
Yes, you are 100% right, I should have gone both in on clutch and brake as soon as I knew I wasn't going to save it.

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

Why flat-spot tires if "locking them down" isn't going to change the direction  of spin - AND might increase the duration? This is an old wive's tale and a fallacy. You have ZERO chance of recovery or directing the end of the spin if the brakes are locked. modulated brakes are ALWAYS better.
Lock them only if there is a wall or something else undesirable in front of you, AND you have no feel or "out"...

5 (edited by Magical Trevor 2015-12-13 07:18 PM)

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

It's about predictability for oncoming traffic; f*ck the tires and your recovery speed, you already blew your best shot (once it has reached 90 degrees to the desired path, or even less if it has a crappy turning circle). You're correct that the driver won't be able to change the direction of the spin; that's the point.

When a car's momentum is allowed to carry it through the path of least resistance (it always will), factors such as steering angle, polar moment of inertia, corner loading, grip variance on the surface(s) in play, and more are all going to affect whether the car is carried to one side or the other. Ain't nobody got time fo' dat! Locking the wheels nullifies or greatly mitigates the influence of most of these factors.

When cars are bearing down on this situation as it happens, the best thing they can have is a predictable, straight path, around which it is much easier to plan an escape route. Otherwise, it's like trying to predict what the squirrel in the lane ahead of you will do (but Lemons cars are a lot bigger and heavier).

Once the tire is scrubbing against the pavement, the rubber "knows" little difference whether it is along the direction of the tread or broadside; but if not fully locked, the car's trajectory will get steered one way or the other, which too often is back into traffic that would otherwise have cleared the incident, even by a few car widths.

You will not find a racing or high performance driving school that does not advocate locking the wheels (if possible) once the driver has exhausted their control.

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

Magical Trevor wrote:

It's about predictability for oncoming traffic; f*ck the tires and your recovery speed, you already blew your best shot (once it has reached 90 degrees to the desired path, or even less if it has a crappy turning circle). You're correct that the driver won't be able to change the direction of the spin; that's the point.

When a car's momentum is allowed to carry it through the path of least resistance (it always will), factors such as steering angle, polar moment of inertia, corner loading, grip variance on the surface(s) in play, and more are all going to affect whether the car is carried to one side or the other. Ain't nobody got time fo' dat! Locking the wheels nullifies or greatly mitigates the influence of most of these factors.

When cars are bearing down on this situation as it happens, the best thing they can have is a predictable, straight path, around which it is much easier to plan an escape route. Otherwise, it's like trying to predict what the squirrel in the lane ahead of you will do (but Lemons cars are a lot bigger and heavier).

Once the tire is scrubbing against the pavement, the rubber "knows" little difference whether it is along the direction of the tread or broadside; but if not fully locked, the car's trajectory will get steered one way or the other, which too often is back into traffic that would otherwise have cleared the incident, even by a few car widths.

You will not find a racing or high performance driving school that does not advocate locking the wheels (if possible) once the driver has exhausted their control.

This, 100% this. 

Once a driver has gone past 90 to the direction of travel, their is no chance of recovery due to skill (there's always the chance that the spin returns the car to the direction of travel), locking it down eliminates a lot of variables that would affect where the car travels while spinning.  While this does nothing for the spinning car, it allows other drivers to correct for a spinning car traveling in a constant direction at a constant speed. 

In a spin? Two feet in!

He's a new man now, part of the machine,
His nerves of metal and his blood oil.
The clutch curses, but the gears obey,
His least bidding, and lo, he's away.

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

I had one of those spins just last month.
Soon as I knew I lost the back end, both feet in.
I let up on the brakes for a split second when I was 180, just to get the front to come around... and spread the flat spots around a bit.
I didn't have the wheel unwound when I got off brakes and the car jumped left.
Could have really ruined that Datsun's day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p … YIrg#t=430

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

Hamsa9 wrote:

In a spin? Two feet in!

I have some issues with this, but I understand why it is oft passed on.
Ultimately, as the driver you are responsible for the behavior
of your car on track. You have to be smart enough to realize the best,
and safest, course of action may be to let a spin continue. Fighting a spin
the point of hitting another car/driver is selfish, and reckless.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

crazymike wrote:

Why flat-spot tires if "locking them down" isn't going to change the direction  of spin - AND might increase the duration? This is an old wive's tale and a fallacy. You have ZERO chance of recovery or directing the end of the spin if the brakes are locked. modulated brakes are ALWAYS better.
Lock them only if there is a wall or something else undesirable in front of you, AND you have no feel or "out"...

Because, once you've f*cked up and started to spin, it's no longer about preserving your tires, it's about preserving the sheet metal of the cars coming up behind you.  Your only goal at this point is to keep the trajectory of your car heading in one, consistent direction, so the cars coming up behind you can safely predict which way to go around you.  If your tires are rotating, then eventually you'll come around to a point where they will grab traction again, and it's at this point you will launch off in some random direction.

bs

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

The skid school course at Motor Racing Stables at  Brands Hatch would teach: as soon as you lost it, turn the wheel hard left...you're gona spin anyway...why not try and do a 360.  But that takes practice.  It's kinda of like leaning into a left hook...counter intuitive.

One other thing...I noticed your entry into carousel seems to be center left even when you had a chance to go center right, which is the preferred line I believe.  Center right opens the the turn and allows a later apex.  This helps in reducing the tendency to spin on exit.

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

I have hesitated to mention these two examples, but here goes...

Caveats. These are "last resort" things to use. And maybe they don't really work anyway. And Your Mileage May Vary. And doing the below in a Lemons crowd could be a quite different thing.

Ex #1. At an HPDE, I was coming down through Sonoma T6 doing a four wheel drift around the dirt off track outside. Not intentionally. How I got there, not important (I was an idiot). Time has slowed down and I was considering my options. Do nothing and I hit the tire wall outside at the end of T6 proper. Hit the brakes - same thing. But, crank the wheel left and hit the throttle hard might spin me around my own axis and change my center of mass direction of travel. So I do it. I did spin around, I didn't hit the wall, I did spray the flagger down there with gravel (sorry). I wound up on the drag strip but off the corner. Was this my only out or a good strategy? Good question. But I did see Tanner Foust do the same thing on a Top Gear episode doing some icy road drifting a few weeks later.

Ex #2. A different HPDE. This happened to a friend. Running the "regular" T9. Back end comes out in 8 and he's now sliding towards the tire wall outside of 8A (the one with car magnets). He cranks the wheel to the right, jams on the brakes to get intentional lift oversteer, and spins to the inside of 8A into the grass. Has dirty/grassy car instead of bent car (bent driver?).

25X Loser - Delinquent Racing - '86 Rust-Tite Merkur - 9 years (when do I get to stop?).

Re: Avoiding Turn 6 wall at Sonoma

I believe in locking up. Spun in turn 9 at laguna and locked them up, car stopped on the track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8VZDcn27ec