Re: WTF
I was just coming to post the same thing. Got this link via the book of faces...
https://www.sema.org/news/2016/02/08/ep … o-racecars
Potential death of crapcan racing?
Re: WTF
I say the EPA needs to get off my ass and start shoving catalytic converters up the asses of cows.
Flatulent bovines produce 80 million metric tons of methane each year, a quantity that will likely increase steadily, over the next few decades, in proportion to the increase in worldwide beef consumption.
Fortunately, there are already some solutions in the works. University of Alberta researchers report that selectively breeding low-emission cattle may reduce methane production by 25%. Other studies show that precisely engineered feed blends–or even simply incorporating garlic into bovine diets–may be even more effective at curbing such emissions. Altering gut microbe composition, whether through genetic manipulation, inoculation, or pharmaceutical treatment, also shows a lot of promise.
Despite this significant body of research, patenting in the area of bovine methane reduction remains relatively minimal. IP Checkups identified only 180 patent documents, worldwide, that were even tangentially related to this space [vs 1800 patents for reducing diesel emissions]. [M]ost of these patent documents relate to either the genetic manipulation of forage plants (aimed at reducing methane emissions via dietary modification) or therapeutics that target methane-producing gut bacteria (such as vaccines and/or pharmaceutical substances).
source: http://www.cleantechpatentedge.com/2012 … onverters/
Re: WTF
I think this would affect crapcan racing much less than other forms of racing. Still a terrible idea though.
Re: WTF
Not for nothing.....
That was posted with not much detail about 'the new regulations', and what the EPA would consider a 'racecar'. I find it odd that there is no detail about any politician or name of anyone at the EPA mentioned, just one from SEMA, and all other details were ambiguous at best. At the bottom is a request for money by SEMA.
I'm not saying the article is fake, but to me, the way its put out is just strange. I would expect way more detail with something like this, and maybe not with a request for funds with it.
SEMA does work hard to in the automotive hobby industry.
Just sayin'.......
Bill
2016 Thompson Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2
Re: WTF
here is the epa website. I'm too lazy to read it all.
7 2016-02-09 09:51 AM (edited by Spank 2016-02-09 12:59 PM)
Re: WTF
Ok, ok. So I started using the "Find" feature and what I'm coming up with is language pertaining to CAFE stuff.
[Annnnd I'm deleting this so as not to promote the spread of misinformation...]
Re: WTF
Everything you quote there seems to not apply to what we are doing. Well, except for the diesel swapped VeggieVette. Always knew you were lawless.
ChumpTruck may have a bit of a problem though.
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless) 1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)
9 2016-02-09 10:22 AM (edited by mharrell 2016-02-09 10:30 AM)
Re: WTF
Ok, ok. So I started using the "Find" feature and what I'm coming up with is language pertaining to CAFE stuff.
I don't think that's the part that's causing the fuss. The "racing exemption" is in 40 CFR part 1068. The summary of the proposed change, given on p. 391 of that document, is:
A motor vehicle qualifies for a competition exclusion based on the physical characteristics of the vehicle, not on its use. Also, if a
motor vehicle is covered by a certificate of conformity at any point, there is no exemption from the tampering and defeat-device prohibitions that would allow for converting the engine or vehicle for competition use. There is no prohibition against actual use of certified motor vehicles or motor vehicle engines for competition purposes; however, it is not permissible to remove a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine from its certified configuration regardless of the purpose for doing so.
and on p. 403:
EPA is proposing in 40 CFR 1037.601(a)(3) to clarify that the Clean Air Act does not allow any person to disable, remove, or
render inoperative (i.e., tamper with) emission controls on a certified motor vehicle for purposes of competition. An existing provision in 40 CFR 1068.235 provides an exemption for nonroad engines converted for competition use. This provision reflects the explicit exclusion of engines used solely for competition from the CAA definition of ‘‘nonroad engine’’. The proposed amendment clarifies that this part 1068 exemption does not apply for motor vehicles.
There are other references along these lines throughout the document, but the gist of it appears to be that if an engine has been certified for street use, it can never be modified away from its certified specification even for racing use. It can be used for racing but it must still have all of its original emissions equipment and meet all original standards. Similarly, if I'm reading the rest of it correctly, a vehicle that was originally certified for street use can't have a different engine installed in it for racing purposes unless that engine meets the original emissions standards of the vehicle itself.
In other words, if this proposal is accepted, then an originally street-legal car must always meet its standards, even if it is only used on track. An originally street-legal engine must always meet its standards, even if it is only used on track. Turning a car into a race car or an engine into a race engine does not eliminate the requirement of meeting the original standards of the car and/or of the engine. The only racing exemption would be for vehicles and engines originally built by the factory for off-road purposes.
On the bright side, this could bring us into a golden age of crapcan racing, where everyone ends up using either domestic-market vehicles and engines from before the era of emissions controls or grey-market imports that are more than 25 years old.
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
10 2016-02-09 11:13 AM (edited by Spank 2016-02-09 12:35 PM)
Re: WTF
Thanks mike. I got bored too quickly and ...
I think I just need to stick to scanning Craigslist
Re: WTF
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless) 1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)
Re: WTF
This is great, the two people who bring some of the slowest and crappiest cars to Lemons COMPLETELY STOCK are doing all the research. Mike and Mike this rule is written for you!
I'm ignoring the Toyohog, Corveggie...
Re: WTF
I think your interpretation makes sense.
I wonder how they could ever enforce such a law. Are they going to start showing up at race tracks and impounding vehicles?
Normally I'd say f*ck them, let them come and find me. However, with GM getting a token fine for killing a couple hundred people, and VW being whacked for $30+ billion for screwing with the EPA, I don't think I want to screw with the EPA.
bs
14 2016-02-09 11:47 AM (edited by CPT_Trans_Continental 2016-02-09 11:48 AM)
Re: WTF
Are they going to start showing up at race tracks and impounding vehicles?
They did in Plaster City, CA. BLM came in under the guise of safety and when they can not staff enough (to write tickets), they cancel events (revoke permits).
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
-Mark Twain
Jagvair 2.0 Build Jagvair YouTube Jagvair Facebook
15 2016-02-09 12:00 PM (edited by mharrell 2016-02-09 12:28 PM)
Re: WTF
This is great, the two people who bring some of the slowest and crappiest cars to Lemons COMPLETELY STOCK are doing all the research.
Well, yeah, this just means we're always looking for a competitive edge wherever we can.
In all seriousness, though, anyone who wants Lemons to develop a more comprehensive and specific set of rules should first look at that PDF document referenced in Spank's post above and try to extract useful information from it. That entire 629-page document is itself just one proposed change in the rules, too.
Oh, and as for enforcement, from p. 584:
We may assess a civil penalty up to $37,500 for each engine or piece of equipment in violation.
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
Re: WTF
Great, I just cut the cats off the Jagvair.
Jagvair 2.0 Build Jagvair YouTube Jagvair Facebook
Re: WTF
Is there anything in there about when and how this takes effect? Would this law be retroactive to existing modified cars, or would they be grandfathered? Would it include cars that have already been purchased but not yet modified? Or would it start with, say, the next new model year of car, and anything produced after 2016 would carry penalties for modification?
Don't get me wrong; I think this is a terrible idea regardless, and I plan on contacting all my congresscritters. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the specifics before I take any action.
Re: WTF
From the Hooniverse article http://hooniverse.com/2016/02/09/us-epa … d-racecar/ they are talking about this not being retroactive so in the worst case scenario, it wouldn't affect us for at least 10 years at minimum. But since the automakers use auto racing for advertisement, I think they will be swinging the biggest peni in this fight. After all, this is a byproduct of the aftermarket parts suppliers who slap a "For racing use only" sticker on a part and market it to fit 2016 street cars and not the automakers. As far as enforcement, didn't NJ stick a cop in the control tower? If they really wanted to put the screws in, the enforcement would be on the track to police with the fines going to the track for non-enforcement. Removing the VIN can give rise to a different set of legal issues. I tend to agree that these guys should be on the list of TLA's you don't want to mess with. I think this will either get killed entirely or refined to accomplish what it is they really want which is to stop the aftermarket from selling stuff to bypass emissions on new cars.
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless) 1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)
Re: WTF
One thing that no one has brought up (or at least I haven't seen) is the EPA certificate of conformity. Doing a quick Google search and it brings up that the CoC is for heavy duty on and off road gas and diesel motors. IE simis, dump trucks, stationary pumps, bulldozers, locomotives, tug boats, and for some weird reason snowmobiles. From where I'm sitting this sounds like the EPA's horribly worded attempt to keep Simi drivers from removing their urea tanks because its and "off road" truck. With the amount of shit that they stirred up today I would hope they come back and clarify that they won't be affecting the bottom line of any of the secondary parts market companies or the right of John Q Public to turn their hooptie into a firey ball of racing awesomeness.
More info here http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/certdata.htm
Re: WTF
One thing that no one has brought up (or at least I haven't seen) is the EPA certificate of conformity. Doing a quick Google search and it brings up that the CoC is for heavy duty on and off road gas and diesel motors.
No, the Certificate of Conformity is for cars, too.
Every class of motor vehicle introduced into commerce in the United States must have a Certificate of Conformity.
Want a copy of it for any car in particular? That quote is from here:
http://www.epa.gov/importing-vehicles-a … -car-truck
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
Re: WTF
Want a copy of it for any car in particular? That quote is from here:
Only goes back to 2003.
Old Hoopties for everyone!
(really hope this doesn't pass)
Re: WTF
Only goes back to 2003.
That's just what's available online. They go back to 1971. Actually 1968 if you count the pre-EPA version. Or 1966 for California.
Old Hoopties for everyone!
Yes.
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
Re: WTF
The very well-written SEMA objection can be found here: first PDF titled "Comment."
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDe … -0827-1469
My lawyer friend and EVR co-captain Bob seems to think this would only affect new vehicles, but the effects on the industry would be pretty far-reaching. He also told me that while most enforcement would be at the corporate level, if they really wanted to the EPA could put the screws to you when they see your 2017 Corvette at the track with an aftermarket intake on it.
24 2016-02-09 02:18 PM (edited by billybobster 2016-02-09 02:23 PM)
Re: WTF
One small way to start fighting this - Change.org petition. Already at 15,000 signers. Spread this around...
https://www.change.org/p/president-of-t … dification
Re: WTF
Well, way back in the post about what a great deal somebody got on a now out of emissions compliance commercial truck, seems I warned we were next. Everyone here dismissed it. This has happened all over...2 stroke watercraft, commercial trucks, powered construction equipment. That's just what I know about, there's probably more.
When I worked in the automotive aftermarket 25yrs ago, members of the California Air Resource Board privately admitted that the change in emissions from modified vehicle was immeasurably small. It made no difference to air quality. So why is it so important to get those aftermarket companies selling equipment for newer cars? Even more so, why the draconian regulation on track only cars? They cant be driven on the street without a current inspection in most states right now. If they were modified, they wouldn't pass and couldn't be licensed.
We need laws to keep gross pollution from occurring, everybody agrees on that. The problem with regulators is eventually they run out of real problems. Our choice is really simple. Vote for bigger government and more regulation, or vote for less. This time, it's not the other guys problem.