The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → CMP practice
I guess our team is gonna cough up the extra 2 bills and practice.
I'm thinking, each driver should just practice 15 or 20 minutes ea. to get a feel for the car(since none of us has ever road raced or driven a front wheel drive car fast around corners) and save the engine, trans, tires, brakes, etc...for the actual race. What are the opinions out there? Also thinking of painting a yellow rookie stripe on the back bumper..
CMP usually runs 6 20 minute sessions with Lemons cars separate from the HPDE guys. We didn't sign up for it this time, but that's how they've run it the previous couple of races. Get there early and get your car tech'd. You need it done before they let you on the track for the practice day.
Only the worst drivers (according to Murilee) will know what the yellow stripe means, so I wouldn't bother.
They just looked at the car, said "Lemons", chuckled and waved me onto the track last time; there was no inspection to speak of for the practice session. Of course the Lemons inspectors were a PITA, but that's different. I'm thinking of leaving something minor undone so they don't have to work so hard to find something to correct this time. I think that it's a matter of pride.
Do you have any road racing experience in any kind of car? HPDE or time trial experience? Lemons is awesome, but it's got to be the worst way to learn to drive a car on a track.
15-20 minutes is plenty, no amount of practice laps will prepare you for the chaos.
Our team consists of me with 20 years of mostly asphalt circle track(CT) racing. I did race at Sebring(short course) twice in a Parts Pro truck(basically a tricked out G body chevy with an aftermarket truck body).
Another member has around 10 years CT in a Camaro streetstock
The next guy has raced CT asphalt and dirt mods and now owns a dirt super late model
The last two guys have NO racing experience but have owned alot of fast cars and do really well at the local cart road course . The carts top out at only 55 mph but the guys at least no how to apex corners and race clean.
I'm thinking we need all the practice we can get!
BTW, I have learned what a CAI is, now fill me in on this HDPE thingy!!!
High Performance Driving Event or dipping your toe in the racing waters to see how cold the water is.
All passing is with a POINT
Hero's for as far as the eye can see
FWD is easy to drive, unless its pushing, more gas is the answer 
definitely do the Friday TNT. (another new acronym for you)
i would suggest you work on learning the braking zones, turn in points & track out points of the course. i see no reason to push the car past about 50% of race speed. maybe hot foot it down the frontstretch once or twice to get used to the sweeper but otherwise learn the track.
hey ecugrad, didn't i see your name on that HPDE season championship trophy?
The last two guys have NO racing experience but have owned alot of fast cars and do really well at the local cart road course . The carts top out at only 55 mph but the guys at least know how to apex corners and race clean.
All of our drivers have HPDE experience and IMO, if that teaches you nothing but the flags you are at least one whole skill level ahead of half the people in the race.
The issue is with people who have done only HPDE is in that setting you are taught the "line", which in theory is the fastest way around the track. The problem is once you get into the race there is no "line". Apexing a corner correctly is VERY RARE, because there is another car (or two, or three, or four) sitting there. You have to learn to drive off-line, on-line, and pretty much anywhere there is not another car.
Racing clean is important, but again LOTS of the drivers have never raced before so this can be a foreign concept to some. There are "gentlemens rules" but lots of the people don't know any of them or seem to care if they do. Lots of these guys seem to be the ones who drive a BOAT or car large enough to wipe you right off the track so they won't even feel it in their car.
I'm sure each guy/gal has his/her own method to this, but this is what I did my first W2W race, which was in Lemons 2008. I pretty much took it easy about the first 30 mins of my first two hour session. I learned which car would do what and in which corners. It didn't take long to tell who was a complete idiot or a-hole that would cut me off in every corner no matter if I had the apex before them or not. Once I knew who to steer clear of I was fine.
Short version, there is no "practice" for what you are about to encounter called the 24 HOL. Just remember this is an ENDURANCE race and those who try to SPRINT usually don't even finish.
I have been trying to preach patience and clean driving to the other guys. On asphalt it's pretty much a given that if you get your front end up beside another driver's
door, they SHOULD give you the line. If not, it's their line. Of course there are always pricks that say,"I didn't know you were there", or they just don't give a shit! I especially like it when someone overdrives their car underneath you going into a turn because they're thinking eight tires handle better than four! Thanks for the tips, we'll try not to drive like dicks...think I will go for the rookie stripe too just to warn approaching cars!
Watch plenty of vids on youtube nefore you get there... just search for Lemons, Lemons south, cmp, etc.
The talk of learning the 'racing line', braking zones, track out points etc is good and all, but when there are 120 cars on a 1.1 mile track, there is NO racing line....
I have been trying to preach patience and clean driving to the other guys. On asphalt it's pretty much a given that if you get your front end up beside another driver's
door, they SHOULD give you the line. If not, it's their line.
That was one of the main"gentleman's rules" to which I was referring. Lots of people particularly in larger Crown Vic type cars (not _all_ of course) will setup on the outside then try and TAKE the apex even though another quicker, lighter, more nimble car has already beaten them to it. In these situations the smaller ligher car is the loser in the battle due to the difference in sheer mass alone.
In my experience with our lighter car the only safe way to pass these guys was to either:
a) Use another slower car as a blocker, kinds like a 'pik' in basketball.
b) Out-brake them on the nd of the straight if there was sufficient room.
With all that said, I will have to admit that during my stints, 95% of the 100+ cars raced me clean.
Seems like the opposite of 95% isn't really "lots of people..."
Seems like the opposite of 95% isn't really "lots of people..."
Did you miss the part where I said during "my stints"? When my teammates were out there against different drvers they weren't as fortunate. Also I have a lot more experience which help me weed out the idiots who have never been on ANY track be it AX, HPDE, or otherwise.
Translation: if you are total track noob in general, Lemons peobably isn't the best place to learn.
YMMV
Edit: Maybe I should have said LOTS = 95% of those driving a BIG A$$ car were the problem.
Translation: if you are total track noob in general, Lemons peobably isn't the best place to learn.
I disagree. Lemons is a great place for noobs to learn. Nearly anywhere else, the negative consequences of a mistake can be very expensive and/or humiliating. A total noob is unlikely to have a track-only car; if he wrecks out at an HPDE, he might be busting up the car that the daily driver, that puts food on the table, pays the bills, etc.
If you wreck at Lemons, you're in safety gear and you're only busting up a car that has probably already been busted up before and isn't worth crap anyway. Nobody expects perfect driving at a Lemons race, and everyone I've raced with has been really cool even if there's contact that results in black flagging. Bend somebody else's clean fender because you can't control your car in a 4-wheel drift in another race series and see if they're not pi$$ed at you. Bend up somebody else's clean fender (if it even exists) at Lemons and they'll probably hand you a beer when you come over to apologize.
If you're going to learn how to race in a real W2W environment, it's hard to imagine one that's more embracing and low-risk than Lemons.
I disagree. Lemons is a great place for noobs to learn. Nearly anywhere else, the negative consequences of a mistake can be very expensive and/or humiliating. A total noob is unlikely to have a track-only car; if he wrecks out at an HPDE, he might be busting up the car that the daily driver, that puts food on the table, pays the bills, etc.
If you wreck at Lemons, you're in safety gear and you're only busting up a car that has probably already been busted up before and isn't worth crap anyway. Nobody expects perfect driving at a Lemons race, and everyone I've raced with has been really cool even if there's contact that results in black flagging. Bend somebody else's clean fender because you can't control your car in a 4-wheel drift in another race series and see if they're not pi$$ed at you. Bend up somebody else's clean fender (if it even exists) at Lemons and they'll probably hand you a beer when you come over to apologize.
If you're going to learn how to race in a real W2W environment, it's hard to imagine one that's more embracing and low-risk than Lemons.
Well I guess we agree to disagree. I’d like to be on the track with others who knew a little about car control, flags, gentlemen’s rules, etc. You and I both have seen what happens when noobs don’t know flags and there is nothing good to come from it. HPDE is a great learning environment and I doubt you’ll hear anyone with that background saying it wasn’t totally worth it. I for one couldn’t imagine being on a race track for the very first time with ONE HUNDRED plus cars in a RACE and didn’t have a clue.
VKZ24,
Your expectations are too high for Lemons. That's a reason that it's the experienced racers that end up in the penalty box... and until Lemons has some more serious license requirements that's just how it's going to be.
I personally hope they don't change it. I know I would never have gotten involved if I thought the track was going to be populated by serious racers. Chumpcar seems to be attracting more that sort of crowd with more well known tracks and less antics.
Lemons was my first racing experience. It was my wife's as well. We understand the flags, will give you plenty of room (if we see you), and there's historically a .3% chance that I will smash your door in because I locked 'em up going into turn 1. If your looking to drive against higher skilled competitors I don't think Lemons is the right race.
VKZ24,
Your expectations are too high for Lemons. That's a reason that it's the experienced racers that end up in the penalty box... and until Lemons has some more serious license requirements that's just how it's going to be.
I personally hope they don't change it. I know I would never have gotten involved if I thought the track was going to be populated by serious racers. Chumpcar seems to be attracting more that sort of crowd with more well known tracks and less antics.
Lemons was my first racing experience. It was my wife's as well. We understand the flags, will give you plenty of room (if we see you), and there's historically a .3% chance that I will smash your door in because I locked 'em up going into turn 1. If your looking to drive against higher skilled competitors I don't think Lemons is the right race.
Experienced racers? Who's talking about those guys? I've been in a total of 3 races and all of them were in 24 HOL. I do have lots of HPDE experience but my point is that experience did help me a lot. FWIW, I've yet to visit the penalty box.
You know the flags, good for you, and being out there with you I'm glad you do. I'm talking about some others who thought "Maybe I've give this thing a try and I'll worry about the rules and other crap when I get there". I mean it's juts a $500 car race so who cares right? Well, you can get hurt or killed in a $500 car race so I think *some* expectation on my part is justified.
VKZ24,
Perhaps we are a bit more alike in experience than I presumed.
I'm respectful of safety and I expect others to be too. I expect drivers to know the flags and look for them. I think we are in agreement there.
Where I think we are in less agreement is the expectation that everyone around you has good car control skills and a knowledge of racing etiquette. Instead I think it is better for all if we assume that the other cars are piloted by average commuters (ie enraged monkeys).
The thing that makes up for the lack of experience is the all-fault black flag rule. It encourages extra courtesy since you don't know if they guy you're passing has had his etiquette lesson.
After having done 3 races I feel like I have some clue about etiquette, but I've also learned that it's better to be safe than sorry. I try to leave space for faster cars even if they haven't got their bumper to my door. I also wait to pass until I have a clear shot. I'm sure it makes me slower, but it's kept me out of black flags (except for the aforementioned door smashing episode).
VKZ24,
Your expectations are too high for Lemons. That's a reason that it's the experienced racers that end up in the penalty box... and until Lemons has some more serious license requirements that's just how it's going to be.
I personally hope they don't change it. I know I would never have gotten involved if I thought the track was going to be populated by serious racers. Chumpcar seems to be attracting more that sort of crowd with more well known tracks and less antics.
Lemons was my first racing experience. It was my wife's as well. We understand the flags, will give you plenty of room (if we see you), and there's historically a .3% chance that I will smash your door in because I locked 'em up going into turn 1. If your looking to drive against higher skilled competitors I don't think Lemons is the right race.
don't worry st-rage, VK just has him his pre-game physch-up on. he should be spitting blood by this time next week.
the first race at CMP and to a lesser extent in the CMP events since there have been Drivers that would take the position / line thru a turn no matter who or what was already there. i remember a certain German luxo barge that attempted to push me off the track everytime i got near him. i'm sure this was intentional.
i think the point here is don't get in over your head and don't drive like a dick and you will be fine.
and yes Chump-Car does seem to be the next step up, but if the car count doesn't increase i don't think they will survive.
I guess our team is gonna cough up the extra 2 bills and practice.
I'm thinking, each driver should just practice 15 or 20 minutes ea. to get a feel for the car(since none of us has ever road raced or driven a front wheel drive car fast around corners) and save the engine, trans, tires, brakes, etc...for the actual race. What are the opinions out there? Also thinking of painting a yellow rookie stripe on the back bumper..
also, i believe there is a short classroom session available. might not be a bad idea to have your newbies sit thru that too.
CMP's Intro to Racing Class: CMP's own Palmetto Motorsports Club/Turn One Track Events is holding an Intro to Racing class for all interested novice or less-experienced Lemons entrants. The 1-½ hour class is designed to help newcomers understand the basics and get up to speed for the race. The curriculum includes: Rules, Safety, Flags, Seating Position, Racing Line (Turn In, Apex, Track Out), Vehicle Dynamics, and Passing. The cost is $30 per driver. Class starts at 5:30pm on Friday in the Palmetto Motorsports Clubhouse (that's the building right next to CMP's front gate). Space is limited, so sign up early: To register, contact Sylvia at sylvia@carolinamotorsportspark.com or call 803-475-5006.
The biggest thing that I noticed, especially in the first session, was a general lack of awareness in many drivers, who had a tendency to drive like they were the only car on the track. I don't know if they were disregarding etiquette or if they simply didn't have a clue, but they would cut people off in a corner when the inside car was even with their front door. HPDE's taught me to know where the other cars are around me and what line I needed to pursue in order to make sure that nobody hit anybody during a pass, in addition to some other stuff, flags, driving technique, car control, etc.
I think that Lemons is a great place to learn W2W, but not a great place to learn driving etiquette, flags, car control, etc, i.e. - most of the stuff that keeps me going around the track safely and at some kind of speed.
All this talk about flags... Are there others besides green, white, yellow, red, blue/yellow, black, checkered? I've mentioned to everyone to make sure that they're aware of where the corner workers are and to look for their flags.
I've also watched every Lemons/CMP race on You Tube and have encouraged my teamates to do so as well. Even emailed links to some of the really "special" ones(rollovers, stupid moves etc.).
If any of you guys get a chance, come by and meet us. We'll be in the #61 black Saab. If you like oysters, we'll be grilling on fri. night!
All this talk about flags... Are there others besides green, white, yellow, red, blue/yellow, black, checkered? I've mentioned to everyone to make sure that they're aware of where the corner workers are and to look for their flags.
I've also watched every Lemons/CMP race on You Tube and have encouraged my teamates to do so as well. Even emailed links to some of the really "special" ones(rollovers, stupid moves etc.).
If any of you guys get a chance, come by and meet us. We'll be in the #61 black Saab. If you like oysters, we'll be grilling on fri. night!
hmmmnnmmnmn oysters.
it's not so much the color of the flags as it is the awareness factor. check this out at about 4:10 http://www.youtube.com/eventerke#p/u/22/Q-8x2hbsAS4
you will need sound to truly appreciate my reaction.
That's good stuff. I would have had the same reaction! WTF! Also, what was deal at the 8:20 mark?
That's good stuff. I would have had the same reaction! WTF! Also, what was deal at the 8:20 mark?
hahahahah, yeah funny story. lesson for crew chiefs............... what i heard was yellow yellow, lock em up. ??????????
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