1 (edited by Mulry 2010-01-27 06:48 PM)

Topic: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

So on the advice of a teammate, I was watching the video of Boris Said driving his Cup car at Infineon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRWj248s93E

And I noticed that it appears that he's not clutching on upshifts. Off the gas, upshift, on the gas. Clutching and heel-toeing on the downshifts.

So, Sages of Lemons, this question: what are the advantages and disadvantages of the no-clutch upshift? My suspicion is that it's faster to upshift without clutching, but maybe at the expense of longevity of the tranny? Would a technique like this be applicable to cars that aren't "real" race cars?

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Oh for sure.  Just lift and jam that sucker in.  As a matter of fact, drain all that unneeded oil out of the tranny too.

Seriously though, unless you are running a constant mesh dog gear trans you will be clutching your upshifts.  We don't clutch the upshifts or the downshifts on the Gnome.  Look at a motorcycle trans and you'll see why.

Cars, cameras, and easy living...

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

WTF? Unless you're running a Jericho or other racing transmission, you'll need to be Fangio to keep your 'box alive....the dogs on racing boxes are super tough and they rebuild them frequently....I'd at least give the clutch a poke before slamming it in...I've seen Showroom Stock cars drain little bits of steel with every trans fluid change...Maybe if you're driving an antique with a Muncie "Rock Crusher"...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

4 (edited by RobL 2010-01-27 07:23 PM)

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

With dog boxes you don't need to clutch - just get the revs close and the dog gears will slam into place under pressure.  It shockloads the entire drivetrain. 

There is a good image of the gears about 2/3rd down the page.
http://www.carbibles.com/transmission_bible.html

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

and much better foot work w/clutchless shifting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Qi7dlYKx0

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Exactly....the synchros on a stock trans will make you look like a hero for a short while....when they're gone, you're on your own. Unless you lighten the flywheel, can the revs drop faster than you can shift? Can you trust your ear to rev match closely enough? By the time it starts jumping out of gear, it's too late....I give the clutch a quick poke, just to decouple the driveline torque and rotational inertia in the engine....but then again I ain't winning...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

My fav is a lenco.  More for drag racing but someday I'll have a street car with one.

http://www.lencoracing.com/ST1200MasterPage.html

If it doesn't have 2 doors, 3 pedals, and 5 lug nuts per wheel - It isn't a real race car

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

The only team(s) that can get away with clutchless shifting would be the all-dog box bike engine cars, and the Angry Hamster showed what happens with a too-long shift lever coupled with iffy '80s Honda V-four transmissions.

I've been riding for 20 some years and have never damaged a motorcycle transmission shifting without the clutch, but synchro boxes are very much at risk without careful shifting.

You could do it if you lost the clutch- I once drove an old 911 across LA in traffic with no clutch (the 901 trans had its clutch release fork pivot ball unscrew)- but you wouldn't want to do it under race conditions. Plus, the shifts are pretty slow without the ability to decouple and move the gearbox internals quickly.

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 144 races and counting.
2/25/24

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Mulry wrote:

So on the advice of a teammate, I was watching the video of Boris Said driving his Cup car at Infineon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRWj248s93E

And I noticed that it appears that he's not clutching on upshifts. Off the gas, upshift, on the gas. Clutching and heel-toeing on the downshifts.

So, Sages of Lemons, this question: what are the advantages and disadvantages of the no-clutch upshift? My suspicion is that it's faster to upshift without clutching, but maybe at the expense of longevity of the tranny? Would a technique like this be applicable to cars that aren't "real" race cars?

given the miles on most of the trannys run around here. if you get 50 laps without using the clutch, i'll be REAL surprised.

course, you can always see if one of the cup teams have an extra unit they'l let go cheap

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Technically, if you are rev match just right, you don't need the clutch.

I've driven plenty of cars that way.  It works but some are easier than others.  I am not fast at it either.

Snychros on the Z transmissions are a pointy ring that helps align the gears.  Emphasis on "helps" they grind off pretty easy. 

Nissan transmissions drive alright but seem to grind easier than I would like.

Mazdas seem to smoother. 

I could pretty easily drive my of 626 without the clutch but my Maxima doesn't like it.

I am sure a quick clutch free shift is a huge shock load to the transmission.

Not disengaging the clutch has to help keep it cool but it's gotta hurt.

Like other guys said, I am sure some hardcore race transmissions can handle this.  Most OEM transmission are probably gonna puke the guts or the clutch out.

We've blown 2 clutches out of the Z.  Wiped the friction material clean off one side of the disc twice.  First one was out of the parts car so it was not surprise.  The second one on the second race was a big WTF.

The current clutch has 2 races on it and it still looks good.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Learn to be a "second nature" heel-and-toe downshifter before clutchless upshifts that will destroy a synchro tranny anyway

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

I say DO IT...what could possibly go wrong ...

But seriously you can only do that in a true racing transmission with straight cut gears...or a sequential

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

To Mulry - "Keep those speed secrets comin' AJ"

Remember, it's never too early to start embellishing the past.

"so there I was, 90mph, sideways on the brink of death ..."

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

LOL. See, I knew you guys would have the answers. Thanks.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

15 (edited by Woodstock 2010-01-29 07:22 AM)

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

I never use the clutch on the Snoopy Van big_smile

It Ain't My Fault

16 (edited by Disney 2010-01-29 09:12 AM)

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI2fGeL7DEE

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

icemang17 wrote:

I say DO IT...what could possibly go wrong ...

That's suspiciously close to how this whole Lemons thing got rolling in the first place

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Judge Jonny wrote:
icemang17 wrote:

I say DO IT...what could possibly go wrong ...

That's suspiciously close to how this whole Lemons thing got rolling in the first place

It's a hell of a mantra, for sure. I'm trying to incorporate it into other areas of my life. wink

Official photographer/Team Police Brutality|Speedycop & the Gang
Lackey-mechanic-whatever/NSF Racing
Sycophant/Judge Phil, Jay Lamm, Kim Harmon
Galaxie Driver/not Parnelli Jones

19 (edited by fizzer 2010-02-01 02:24 PM)

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Clutchless shifting in an endurance race is bad mmmm-k?

Want those synchro trannies to really go the distance?  Double-clutch your down AND upshifts.

If you do have a dogbox though, forget the clutch.  Brake with your left foot like a real man (or woman).  Montoya's F1 skillz in effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h41sMovV6SA

Kurt Krumm
STS
Current car: who the hell knows
Prior offenses to sound judgment: Toyota coROLLa, Audi 80, Toyota MR2, Ford Crown Vic chop job

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Our team solved this debate but getting rid of the pesky shifting entirely.  CVT FWT...or catastrophic FAIL (We're not sure yet).

Check out our smoke breathing two stroke monster build...I mean imminent failure at http://metroneige.blogspot.com.

Re: Clutching on Upshift: Unnecessary?

Disney wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI2fGeL7DEE Keisler's '98 Dakota R/T56

That's bad-ass! Always wished my R/T Dak had a manual... now I'm suddenly obsessed!! Dog-box... dog-box... dog-box...

I'd say the chances of screwing something up with clutchless shifting in a normal car is directly proportional to the amount of power and speed your car is capable of.

MGBs for example don't really need a clutch to shift, and so many things go randomly wrong that you learn how to rpm match real quick if you want to get home every week. They just never go fast enough for it to matter. My GT lasted decades with all manner of abuse and rarely with enough oil either. Sooo loud and clanky you could not talk in the car, and it seized occasionally when hot, but it kept going and going. It only came out because I found an overdrive unit that worked.

Another observation... in lower power cars tranny abuse won't show up till the next stint or the next race.

"Real ZomBees prefer Bacon"
IOE(x2) MGB/SAAB 96, Judge's Choice, Class C Win, & 2011 Hooniverse Car of the Year!
MRolla, Stick Figure/Animal House, Free Range MR2, SAAB Sonett, "The Death Flip"
2008 Exoskeleton Jag Fiasco, Concours d Lemons - Rue Britannia, worse British car.