The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → Value of buying someone else’s LeMon
Hey everyone,
Had a question about buying an existing Lemons car. How is the $500 value determined/confirmed if you buy $3,000 built car previously raced in Lemons with roll cage, etc already installed?
Secondary question - if you had a circle track car (like a bomber) that was a stock chassis, could you rework the safety to meet Lemons tech specs and run it?
Thanks for the help.
The car costs $500. (Plus anything cheaty) because it's a gutted POS that has a proven history of abuse. The Exempt equipment installed in the car costs whatever they are asking for it.
For a circle track conversion you usually have to start from scratch on the cage if you built it to Corcle track minimums because they are usually smaller tube than Lemons requires. And even if you do have the right tube size in, it may not be in an easy to modify configuration. Best bet on that is to contact Pagel through the main page contact links and send many pictures.
It has been done, but may not be cost effective.
Don't worry about the $500 limit with a pre-owned car....For example,say the total cost is $3000....
What you'll get is a reciept for $500 for the car,and $2500 for the safety equipment....
As far as buying a former circle track car,I have always heard that the cost to bring it to Lemons standards negates any savings...
Hope this helps...
You may be able to find a retired SCCA/NASA car that is closer to Lemons cage standards. Mine started off that way and just needed additional door bars and spreader plates on the rear stays.
You may be able to find a retired SCCA/NASA car that is closer to Lemons cage standards. Mine started off that way and just needed additional door bars and spreader plates on the rear stays.
Our 77 Celica Started off the same as Brett's. they are out there and tend to need minimal work to get them to Lemons spec. but you do need to know what you are looking for. if you go looking at an old SCCA/NASA car, I would take the Lemons information with you and check off what is good, what is bad, what needs changed and then make the decision. just my 2 cents.
The value in purchasing a previously built/raced car lies in the number of reliable, appropriate, and costly components that have already been purchased and installed. Additionally, the quality of the build and the level of "Sorting" that has already occurred can be valuable. Would recommend you consider the following...
Does it have upgraded suspension
Does it have upgraded braking - lines, rotors, calipers
Does it have a legal seat and belts
Does it have an appropriate fuel cell, pump, and lines
Does it have a Lemons compliant roll cage
Does it have an appropriate and compliant kill switch
Does it come with appropriate wheels and at least two sets
Has the cooling system been upgraded to include larger radiator, shroud, fans
What is the REAL condition of the motor. compression and leak-down data
What is the condition of the transmission and shift linkage. how many races on the tranny
If the car does not meet most of the above criteria, regardless of whether it is Lemons, SCCA, or circle track, then you would be better off continuing to look until you find one that does meet the above. When you do find one...it will result in significant overall savings versus a new build. If you can't find something that meets most of the criteria, you might as well start from scratch, as it can often take more time and money to resolve somebody else's poor build than to just start from scratch.
And don't worry about the $500 car issue w pre-owned car.
Thanks everyone. That was all helpful.
...Secondary question - if you had a circle track car (like a bomber) that was a stock chassis, could you rework the safety to meet Lemons tech specs and run it?
We do turn right in 24 HoL. Since circle track cars are set-up to turn left only,
you may find the testing time and parts to make it turn right cost prohibitive.
The value in purchasing a previously built/raced car lies in the number of reliable, appropriate, and costly components that have already been purchased and installed. Additionally, the quality of the build and the level of "Sorting" that has already occurred can be valuable. Would recommend you consider the following...
Does it have upgraded suspension
Does it have upgraded braking - lines, rotors, calipers
Does it have a legal seat and belts
Does it have an appropriate fuel cell, pump, and lines
Does it have a Lemons compliant roll cage
Does it have an appropriate and compliant kill switch
Does it come with appropriate wheels and at least two sets
Has the cooling system been upgraded to include larger radiator, shroud, fans
What is the REAL condition of the motor. compression and leak-down data
What is the condition of the transmission and shift linkage. how many races on the trannyIf the car does not meet most of the above criteria, regardless of whether it is Lemons, SCCA, or circle track, then you would be better off continuing to look until you find one that does meet the above. When you do find one...it will result in significant overall savings versus a new build. If you can't find something that meets most of the criteria, you might as well start from scratch, as it can often take more time and money to resolve somebody else's poor build than to just start from scratch.
And don't worry about the $500 car issue w pre-owned car.
I'm totally on board with most of what you're saying above, but I'd argue that for most non-rare cars the condition of the engine is almost irrelevant. All the safety stuff costs real money and the cage has to be spot-on... But if I were parting ways with our car and someone wanted a leak-down test, I'd laugh. I've put a couple of motors in the Benz running it since 2012, they cost between FREE and $500. It's not a big expense and if you're not down with ripping the driveline out of your race car once in a while, Lemons probably isn't your thing.
I really think the BEST deal in a used Lemon is a car that passed tech last month and raced, and blew up mechanically, being sold cheap by a disillusioned team... That car is a couple hundred bucks and some beers away from being race ready. You want turn-key, it will logically cost a good bit more...
I really think the BEST deal in a used Lemon is a car that passed tech last month and raced, and blew up mechanically, being sold cheap by a disillusioned team... That car is a couple hundred bucks and some beers away from being race ready. You want turn-key, it will logically cost a good bit more...
We just made a good deal selling our IoE contender (we were ROBBED!) to a newbie team that feared they could not get a car prepp'ed for the October Gingerman race. This was kind of a good deal for both sides. This was a fast-and-dirty no-improvements build...not our normal build. Safety, fluids, nut and bolt check only.
They got a car they can just re-theme, install their seat, put good tires and brakes on and fix a fuel leak issue...then go racing. We sold it to them for (materials only) cost of the safety with a valid open title. It is ready to race in two good weekends of work. If they get crazy later, there are upgrade paths for the car.
We got most of our money back on the car to put into our next stupid build. They got a mostly race ready car for less than they would pay for a cage installed. We don't execute any of my really stupid ideas I have for that car and instead focus on our two pending builds.
Our Pinto was a circle track car when we got it. We got it cheap. The cage most likely would have passed tech but our goal from the start was a new cage anyway and that's what we did. Knowing that in advance, we made sure that the rest of the car was good to go. Even needing a new cage there was so much else already done with this car to make it well worth getting. The only 'turn left only' thing in the car was a modified left spindle.
If I were to buy a used lemon's car I would look at the cage first, then structure around the cage, then the rest of the car. Most people can't do cages and structure work themselves, or can't afford to have it done, but they can do other parts of the build from brake work to motor swaps.
Bill
The most expensive thing is the cage, followed by fire system, then seat and belts,
and this stuff by itself can be $2000. The rest can be cheap if you are Class C.
It can get expensive if you want to go fast and start buying racing stuff.
Coil overs, racing brakes, racing wheels and tires, racing cooling and oiling, racing stripes.
Not sure if I saw the “official word on used Lemons cars” listed already, because Ican’t see well now without reading glasses...
Officially, if you are purchasing a used Lemons car and really care about its value in the eyes of the Lemons Supreme Court, exchange some emails with either Judge Phil or Judge Eric and they will provide for you a “residual value” for the car which is used for judging purposes at tech. Save and print off these email exchanges and present them at tech when you are set to argue against potential penalty laps.
Cool. As a noob, I'm sure its not as big a deal as I'm making it. I just didn't know how they determined if a $3k Lemons car was worth $500 + $2500 in safety stuff. Sounds like its not that big of a deal if you're not trying to be a $500 my ass kind of team. Am I on the right track there? Thanks again y'all.
Not sure if I saw the “official word on used Lemons cars” listed already, because Ican’t see well now without reading glasses...
Officially, if you are purchasing a used Lemons car and really care about its value in the eyes of the Lemons Supreme Court, exchange some emails with either Judge Phil or Judge Eric and they will provide for you a “residual value” for the car which is used for judging purposes at tech. Save and print off these email exchanges and present them at tech when you are set to argue against potential penalty laps.
Don't forget to expect them to say "oh, this is the old so and so car. You're class X." without even opening the hood or asking you too much about the car. At least that was my experience.
Not sure if I saw the “official word on used Lemons cars” listed already, because Ican’t see well now without reading glasses...
Officially, if you are purchasing a used Lemons car and really care about its value in the eyes of the Lemons Supreme Court, exchange some emails with either Judge Phil or Judge Eric and they will provide for you a “residual value” for the car which is used for judging purposes at tech. Save and print off these email exchanges and present them at tech when you are set to argue against potential penalty laps.
Spank is spot on.
I've seen a couple cars listed recently that would get penalty laps, even they were free.
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → Value of buying someone else’s LeMon