1 (edited by Max 2019-11-18 03:57 PM)

Topic: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

I’ve been contemplating speed creep lately as I’m planning some major upgrades over the winter in an effort to be competitive in my pointy-ended class. 

Right now the only real threat to fast cars are penalty laps (especially in class A).  These are sporadically utilized and don’t seem to do a whole lot.  I’m wondering if formalizing the penalty lap system could help them be more effective at limiting speed creep.  Maybe use them like a handicap in bowling (sorta but oppositely since penalties would be given versus slower teams receiving negative laps).  A side note: I just learned that "oppositely" is a real word. 

Some ideas/thoughts:

-penalty laps are assigned to the cars (not teams)

-penalty laps are fully-transferable between races, seasons, and sales between teams (just heading off the inevitable)

-penalty laps are only assigned to top one/three/five/whatever cars in class A and/or B (this way it only impacts the “pointy-end” and makes keeping track less of a burden)

-penalty laps are dynamic and change based on the results of each race (better than having to track penalties rolling over multiple races)

-penalty laps can be mitigated by accepting some kind of real performance penalty for the next race, something like 300+TW tires or limiting the team to one gas can per hot pit stop (asking a team to come up with a good theme next time is cool but doesn’t do anything to address speed creep), I consider this my weakest idea as it would be difficulter to track ("difficulter" is not a real word but feels fitting nonetheless)

-the existing system of class-bumping for winning wouldn't change much, winning class B-winning cars would be always given the option to bump to A or accept penalty laps

-whatever formula is used should be formalized and remain the same over each calendar-year

Example formula: top three drivers in class receive penalty laps in the amount of half (rounded up) of the laps ahead of the next finishing car applied to following race, winning class B gets the car bumped to A.

-Race 1: Car Z wins class B, bumped to class A for next race (they decided the 11-lap penalty not worth staying in class B)
-Race 2: Car Z finishes in top three in class A, 20 laps ahead of next car in class, earns a 10-lap penalty for next race
-Race 3: Car Z finishes in top three in class A, five laps ahead of next car in class, earns a three-lap penalty for next race (always round up!)
-Race 4: Car Z finishes out of top three in class A, penalty laps go away for next race
-Race 5: Car Z finishes in top three in class A, seven laps ahead of next car in class, earns a four-lap penalty for next race


I realize that implementing something like this is probably akin to the SCCA/NASA buying the Lemons series for some folks.  I think of it as trying to address something (speed creep) that literally everyone agrees is an issue using a lever that already exists. 

Any thoughts/criticisms/changes?  What are the obvious issues?  Why wouldn’t something like this work?  Any other realistic ideas that might directly impact speed creep?

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

I think that's a lot to keep track of.

If there were teams hauling their cars on regional or national tours, then maybe it would be worth it.

As a slow car guy, speed creep doesn't bother me as long as the fast car drivers are paying attention... and if they aren't, they don't belong on a race track and they'll likely screw something else up first.

Too hard for the fast car driver to watch out for slow cars? Slow down! This means the car is faster than the driver.

A slow car was on the line the fast car wanted? Wait a couple of seconds and there will be a straight.

Ten cars want to pass a slow car abreast in a hairpin? See above or get in line.

The only other realistic option is some form of qualifying like the other series on the west coast, and even that sounds like a bit of a headache.

That guy

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

Max wrote:

I think of it as trying to address something (speed creep) that literally everyone agrees is an issue using a lever that already exists.

I disagree that speed creep is an issue. Your proposal is too hard to follow. I think AER does index racing more or less, or maybe one of the other people. Anyway I like Lemons because the top prize isn’t overall winner.

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

Define “speed creep”.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

After reading that, and the other thread, I dug up the spreadsheet of my team's finishes. Between our "speedy" car's debut in 2012 (84th overall) and its last race (B winner, couple laps behind overall) the only mechanical change to the car was some second-hand shock absorbers.

I attribute 100% percent of my teams "speed creep" to learning to drive clean and better organization. Those don't seem like qualities Lemons should limit or penalize.

Interceptor Motorsports
351w Foxy T-Bird - Class B Winner!, 69 Mustang Fastback - Hella Sweet!
440 Bluesmobile - Judges Choice, Org Choice & IOE!, Camero, Fuego Turbo - Heroic Fix & IOE!

6 (edited by Guildenstern 2019-11-18 07:14 PM)

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

Max wrote:

I’ve been contemplating speed creep lately as I’m planning some major upgrades over the winter in an effort to be competitive in my pointy-ended class. 

Right now the only real threat to fast cars are penalty laps (especially in class A).  These are sporadically utilized and don’t seem to do a whole lot.  I’m wondering if formalizing the penalty lap system could help them be more effective at limiting speed creep.  Maybe use them like a handicap in bowling (sorta but oppositely since penalties would be given versus slower teams receiving negative laps).  A side note: I just learned that "oppositely" is a real word.

I prefer the lewis Carrolian “Contrariwise” myself.

Is there really speed creep? Are average lap times still coming down? Or have pit strategies gone up? I know there are more 2-3 hour stint 2 driver people running for the shortest stack of nickels.

Are they still getting faster or just staying out forever droppin laps like gangstas?

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Define “speed creep”.

I think he means that yellow BMW driven by heroes with an engine that sounds like sex.

8 (edited by MDG 2019-11-18 09:44 PM)

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

Gildenstern’s ideas are where we got way faster over the years. Fuel cell moved us from 1-1.5 hour stints to 2.25-3 hour stints, and after we got smoked on pit stops by “Done racing” we planned and practiced those and shaved minutes off. Our car and drivers haven’t gotten much or any faster in the last 2-3 years.

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

Max wrote:

-penalty laps can be mitigated by accepting some kind of real performance penalty for the next race, something like 300+TW tires or limiting the team to one gas can per hot pit stop


I like the above ideas, but it would give Lemons something else to police, and they just ain't into that.


Max wrote:

Example formula: top three drivers in class receive penalty laps in the amount of half (rounded up) of the laps ahead of the next finishing car applied to following race


This doesn't work.  The leader will simply "sandbag" at the end of the race if they have a big lead.


IMO, if you have an overall win more than once, you should get penalty laps.  How many, I don't have a clue.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

What are the most penalty laps given to a former winner?   What are the most laps overcome by a team to win a race or class?  Do they give penalty laps to former class/overall winners on the East or West coast?

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

I don't think it's even speed creep, it's lack of good, true, class C cars. It's just moving to newer cars, a 1999 is 20 yrs old... And in the Midwest that's usually so far gone it's not even worth it. Someone would rather build something worth while. Just my rant, please continue

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

What are the most penalty laps given to a former winner?   What are the most laps overcome by a team to win a race or class?  Do they give penalty laps to former class/overall winners on the East or West coast?

On the east coast, I don't know of any penalty laps given to former winners, and even multiple winners.  IIRC, Hong Noorth won like 4 in a row with no penalty laps.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

Maybe my team is part of the "speed creep" problem that you speak of and none of what I say counts, but I don't think speed creep is as much of an issue as you think.  It took us a year and a half to win a race after we did the Cadillac swap, and the race where we won we were running slower times than previous races.  We won because we stayed out of trouble, took it easy on the car so it wouldn't break, had a team of consistent drivers, got lucky when other teams broke down, and had an average of 90 seconds per pit stop.  Our overall lap count for the race was actually lower than several previous years, so other teams have gone faster in the past.

I also think the main draw to Lemons is that it isn't nearly as "serious" as most other race series out there.  I think that's why Lemons race weekends and the people are so fun, because at the end of the weekend, the biggest prize goes to the IOE and the lower classes.  Adding lots of rules outside of the safety stuff to keep Class A cars in check seems like it would just make Lemons like the rest of them, but with basically no prize money.

Petrosexual Racing - 4.9 HT swap/Trashback Miata
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=35746
BFE GP '18 - 1st in C, High Plains Drifter -19 - 1st in B/Overall
Uh oh, Spaghettios...

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

What are the most penalty laps given to a former winner?   What are the most laps overcome by a team to win a race or class?  Do they give penalty laps to former class/overall winners on the East or West coast?

I think Fail inc over came 32 to win its second 2 in a row in C. it was 32 or class B.

To stay in C they now have a 64 lap penalty.

88 Festiva  -  Damn Tree!!!
"We Are Not Really From Iran" Festiva  -  Motor and Trans to be anounced

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

I think it must just be the midwest judges (Eric) who have been handing out the penalty laps then.   TaTas and our team usually get the same and usually get 6-10 per race.   It will be 10+ from now on I bet.   We won the last race with 6 penalty laps by 4 laps (but we had not BFs and fast pit stops).  There are some southern teams that’s get a few less laps then we do at Barber also (Eric is usually there also).   


The laps are totally fine to us.  It keeps things interesting.  But having said that, what would a team normally do if they have to make up more laps?  Drive harder?  Make the car faster?  Run longer stints?  Just sayin’

VKZ24 wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

What are the most penalty laps given to a former winner?   What are the most laps overcome by a team to win a race or class?  Do they give penalty laps to former class/overall winners on the East or West coast?

On the east coast, I don't know of any penalty laps given to former winners, and even multiple winners.  IIRC, Hong Noorth won like 4 in a row with no penalty laps.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

16

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

When I was writing that up I was wondering if I should just Control+A and Delete but now I'm super-glad I didn't! 

Discussion FTW!

First, I hope I didn't rile up too many jimmies due to my post.  Perhaps I should have said I'm "happily" planning some major upgrades over the winter. 

As with many debatable things I think this comes down to semantics.  Like what does "speed creep" mean. 

I see "speed creep" as literally cars going faster.  Specifically the speed differential between the fastest and the slowest classes growing wider. 

Teams and drivers evolving to be better at pit stops and driving isn't speed creep IMO.  Hm.  Well, maybe it is but it's like healthy speed creep.  Part of the point of racing is to get better at it. 

Like I said, I'm glad I posted.  Reading posts on these forums over the last year or so had me thinking what I thought of as "speed creep" was a universally recognized and reviled thing.  This does not seem to actually be the case.  Personally, I don't mind how things are right now.  That said, I'm new and fully-embrace being in the "pointy-end" of things. 

egesledder - I honestly look at your team as one of the best in Colorado.  Fast car that is pure-Lemons, good track etiquette, good themes, awesome bribes, chill guys... Y'all check every box as far as I can tell.  While I think that the "fast" box isn't one that everyone appreciates, I do, and I look forward to attempting to come close to the lap time/reliability balance that your team has recently achieved.

17 (edited by majo 2019-11-19 07:01 PM)

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

If we are going with the definition of speed creep as "the speed differential between the fastest and slowest classes growing wider" than I just don't know where to go next.

My first Lemons car was/is a class B '95 Ford Probe.

Second Lemons car was a slow-ass '81 Imperial.

Third Lemons car is a spectacularly slow 81 Mazda 626.

I'm doing my part to help expand speed creep by bringing the blunt end of the spear even further lower with every new car.

You're welcome.

COM ( Chief Operating Moron ) of Burnt Rubber Soul Racing
Current fleet: 95 Ford Probe, 81 Mazda 626.  Past: 81 Imperial
Facebook page:  https://www.facebook.com/burntrubbersoulracing

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

addict#52 wrote:

I don't think it's even speed creep, it's lack of good, true, class C cars. It's just moving to newer cars, a 1999 is 20 yrs old... And in the Midwest that's usually so far gone it's not even worth it. Someone would rather build something worth while. Just my rant, please continue

We built what, three now.  About to build a fourth.

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

Max wrote:

When I was writing that up I was wondering if I should just Control+A and Delete but now I'm super-glad I didn't! 

Discussion FTW!

First, I hope I didn't rile up too many jimmies due to my post.  Perhaps I should have said I'm "happily" planning some major upgrades over the winter. 

As with many debatable things I think this comes down to semantics.  Like what does "speed creep" mean. 

I see "speed creep" as literally cars going faster.  Specifically the speed differential between the fastest and the slowest classes growing wider. 

Teams and drivers evolving to be better at pit stops and driving isn't speed creep IMO.  Hm.  Well, maybe it is but it's like healthy speed creep.  Part of the point of racing is to get better at it. 

Like I said, I'm glad I posted.  Reading posts on these forums over the last year or so had me thinking what I thought of as "speed creep" was a universally recognized and reviled thing.  This does not seem to actually be the case.  Personally, I don't mind how things are right now.  That said, I'm new and fully-embrace being in the "pointy-end" of things. 

egesledder - I honestly look at your team as one of the best in Colorado.  Fast car that is pure-Lemons, good track etiquette, good themes, awesome bribes, chill guys... Y'all check every box as far as I can tell.  While I think that the "fast" box isn't one that everyone appreciates, I do, and I look forward to attempting to come close to the lap time/reliability balance that your team has recently achieved.

Again, is there data to back up "Speed Creep"? What do the lap times say?

Speed Delta can be a problem, but anecdotally it seems more like the majority of the cars are evening out at a steady rate.

Old teams are getting quicker, and new teams are getting up to snuff faster. Sure there's still the good old rolling chicanes out there to make life interesting, But I'm less convinced that we're still seeing lap time improvements of any significance.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

fitsbain wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

What are the most penalty laps given to a former winner?   What are the most laps overcome by a team to win a race or class?  Do they give penalty laps to former class/overall winners on the East or West coast?

I think Fail inc over came 32 to win its second 2 in a row in C. it was 32 or class B.

To stay in C they now have a 64 lap penalty.

To the best of my knowledge the Lexus has only won C Class once, in its second race entered....

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

I find this topic interesting as I have been looking at my and the team's reaction to the different years of racing. We definitely got a bit of a "need for speed" (Excel-racing after the race, going through the "What if's"). Here's some data from our team.  These are all at High Plains Raceway in a 1996 BMW 318ti (no I6 here - M44) (Sew So Fast - my wife is a quilter and always WOTs her sewing machine, hence the reference)

2017 - BFE-GP - best 2:23.5 - 277 laps - 19th overall
2018 - BFE-GP - best 2:20.6 - 315 laps - 8th overall
2018 - get yer Phil - best 2:17.8 - 334 laps - 2nd overall
2019 - BFE GP - best 2:17.8 - 319 laps - 6th overall
2019 - High Plains Drifter - best 2:18.1 - 333 laps - 2nd overall

Here's what we tried to change over the years:
- No black flags!! Well, that was the plan... but Fewer Black flags!! Sitting in the penalty box wastes laps. We had more in the beginning, and now are looking at none to two per race on average.
- Longer stints.  First race we wanted to make sure everyone got seat time and we kinda doddled around (30-45min stints, 5-8 min driver changes).  Now that we think the car is sorted we start with longer stints 1-2 hours, depending on things)
- First race we didn't really practice fuel stops.  Now we at least do a walk through the night before to figure out the steps and who does what...

Technical changes on the car:
- We put a nicer used suspension on for the last race, along with some 10mm wider tires on lighter wheels.  And then we had a slower fastest lap. Face - meet palm...  Car was a bit easier to drive more consistently, FWIW.  Before that we had cut springs (race 1 and 2) and a slightly nicer, non-cut suspension for race 3 and 4.
- Added a drink-bottle holder.

It's all in the clean/safe driving, efficient fuel-stops, and driver changes. 

What's the future hold?
With the current safety regs I get why people want to have cars that are fairly quick and reliable.  The amount of money that is spent on these things is substantial, and I can understand why people want to do well for the $4k-$5k of car + $1.4k entry fees.  Also, as was mentioned above, of the kind of cars one can get for <$500 most easily, many are really quite good! Our car was $430 at the first race, and we've been putting residuals toward suspension every time.

Having said all that, I feel that we lost a bit of the first year wonder and sheer enjoyment of driving a hooptie on a track. We are currently trying to build a second car that is more in the spirit of Lemons, and damn if it's not a PITA to get this less reliable thing lined up. We frequently ask ourselves if this is a good idea - why not run the "old reliable" instead of pouring money into this new POS that can't be used for anything but this particular race. But we're going to  do it anyhow b/c there will be tons of fun in the end.  I think we have at least this additional car in us.

Lemons is such a unique event, and the people are so much fun. I hope it continues for years to come.  I wonder if re-assigning award funds toward the more lemonsy award-winners isn't a good idea.  Who knows.

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

egesledder wrote:

Maybe my team is part of the "speed creep" problem that you speak of and none of what I say counts, but I don't think speed creep is as much of an issue as you think.  It took us a year and a half to win a race after we did the Cadillac swap, and the race where we won we were running slower times than previous races.  We won because we stayed out of trouble, took it easy on the car so it wouldn't break, had a team of consistent drivers, got lucky when other teams broke down, and had an average of 90 seconds per pit stop.  Our overall lap count for the race was actually lower than several previous years, so other teams have gone faster in the past.

We are long time frequent front runners with some near misses on an overall win. Our lap times are actually slower now than in the past but we are easier on the car, stay out of trouble and make good pit stops which gets us more mileage than fast lap times. Hero laps are a lot easier than sustainable speed.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

gtopat wrote:

After reading that, and the other thread, I dug up the spreadsheet of my team's finishes. Between our "speedy" car's debut in 2012 (84th overall) and its last race (B winner, couple laps behind overall) the only mechanical change to the car was some second-hand shock absorbers.

I attribute 100% percent of my teams "speed creep" to learning to drive clean and better organization. Those don't seem like qualities Lemons should limit or penalize.


I think there is a lot more of this going on than some people realize. We're in the same boat. First race with the saab in 2016 we were running 1:36 or slower at NH and finished in the 30s somewhere overall. This past race at NH we were running fast laps in the 1:29s and had a shot at top 15 before we turned our front passenger brake rotor into the sun. There have been zero mechanical changes to the car to make it faster, just mods for reliability, that speed increase is purely us getting better at driving.

A lot of teams fall into this category of getting faster through just getting better, not dumping money into building a super cheaty car. On the east coast, how many races has mome rath run before finally finding themselves winning this year? Hint, it's a lot. And if you put those gals/guys in almost any other car I guarantee they'll make it fast. Punishing teams for simply getting better seems counter productive.

Balancing classes is usually done on a race by race basis. You don't always have the same field at every race, so you need to balance out who's there. Having mandatory laps, that have to be tracked race to race, region to region sounds awful. Part of what makes Lemons so fun is the fact that the rules are simple, and the judges get to be dictators. Their call is final and that makes it fun, if the rule book grew by 10 pages the whole thing would start to feel just a little too serious.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

I’m not saying this to change your mind, but you have a reliable car that is close to winning a race.  Don’t take it for granted what it is teaching you every time you get to the track and are able to churn laps.  Broken cars that you can’t drive and just spend all weekend wrenching on certainly amuses the judges, but it doesn’t make you any better at racing.   The fastest lap is one thing, but the average lap is much more telling of where your team is heading with speed.  Keep churning laps and keep improving as drivers.  If improving driving isn’t really that much fun, and building a C class car is more your thing, then that’s cool too.   

To give perspective on whether your current car is in the “spirit of Lemons” ... and you definitely are... When we were at HPR with WRL I ran a 2:04 in our Lemons car.   You are NOT the issue.  We probably are. 

Good luck on your car building. 

fschlottau wrote:

I find this topic interesting as I have been looking at my and the team's reaction to the different years of racing. We definitely got a bit of a "need for speed" (Excel-racing after the race, going through the "What if's"). Here's some data from our team.  These are all at High Plains Raceway in a 1996 BMW 318ti (no I6 here - M44) (Sew So Fast - my wife is a quilter and always WOTs her sewing machine, hence the reference)

2017 - BFE-GP - best 2:23.5 - 277 laps - 19th overall
2018 - BFE-GP - best 2:20.6 - 315 laps - 8th overall
2018 - get yer Phil - best 2:17.8 - 334 laps - 2nd overall
2019 - BFE GP - best 2:17.8 - 319 laps - 6th overall
2019 - High Plains Drifter - best 2:18.1 - 333 laps - 2nd overall

Here's what we tried to change over the years:
- No black flags!! Well, that was the plan... but Fewer Black flags!! Sitting in the penalty box wastes laps. We had more in the beginning, and now are looking at none to two per race on average.
- Longer stints.  First race we wanted to make sure everyone got seat time and we kinda doddled around (30-45min stints, 5-8 min driver changes).  Now that we think the car is sorted we start with longer stints 1-2 hours, depending on things)
- First race we didn't really practice fuel stops.  Now we at least do a walk through the night before to figure out the steps and who does what...

Technical changes on the car:
- We put a nicer used suspension on for the last race, along with some 10mm wider tires on lighter wheels.  And then we had a slower fastest lap. Face - meet palm...  Car was a bit easier to drive more consistently, FWIW.  Before that we had cut springs (race 1 and 2) and a slightly nicer, non-cut suspension for race 3 and 4.
- Added a drink-bottle holder.

It's all in the clean/safe driving, efficient fuel-stops, and driver changes. 

What's the future hold?
With the current safety regs I get why people want to have cars that are fairly quick and reliable.  The amount of money that is spent on these things is substantial, and I can understand why people want to do well for the $4k-$5k of car + $1.4k entry fees.  Also, as was mentioned above, of the kind of cars one can get for <$500 most easily, many are really quite good! Our car was $430 at the first race, and we've been putting residuals toward suspension every time.

Having said all that, I feel that we lost a bit of the first year wonder and sheer enjoyment of driving a hooptie on a track. We are currently trying to build a second car that is more in the spirit of Lemons, and damn if it's not a PITA to get this less reliable thing lined up. We frequently ask ourselves if this is a good idea - why not run the "old reliable" instead of pouring money into this new POS that can't be used for anything but this particular race. But we're going to  do it anyhow b/c there will be tons of fun in the end.  I think we have at least this additional car in us.

Lemons is such a unique event, and the people are so much fun. I hope it continues for years to come.  I wonder if re-assigning award funds toward the more lemonsy award-winners isn't a good idea.  Who knows.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Limiting Speed Creep - Formalizing Penalty Laps?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

I’m not saying this to change your mind, but you have a reliable car that is close to winning a race.  Don’t take it for granted what it is teaching you every time you get to the track and are able to churn laps.  Broken cars that you can’t drive and just spend all weekend wrenching on certainly amuses the judges, but it doesn’t make you any better at racing.
...
To give perspective on whether your current car is in the “spirit of Lemons” ... and you definitely are... When we were at HPR with WRL I ran a 2:04 in our Lemons car.   You are NOT the issue.  We probably are. 

Good luck on your car building.

Thanks for the feedback - a lot of it resonates. We've been tossing around a bit - we definitely don't want to drive a car that is constantly breaking, but if we do build another one, it better be entertaining AND mostly reliable.  That would be ideal. 90% entertaining racing, 10% lemon-zest.  Delicious. A pint of lemon juice (90%) with a crumb of racing (10%) is not my idea of a good time.

As for winning outright, this last race we checked a box of winning A (barely), which was a lot of fun, but also somewhat stressful.  Hats off to egesledder - they have built a hell of a machine, and deservedly won overall! I think a "C" car is in our future.  We'll keep the other one nearby, jsut in case. 

BTW, what Lemons car runs 2:04??  that's ridiculously fast! (too fast for Lemons, as you stated?)  I guess WRL is a better match there.

Cheers