Topic: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Hello all,

Future team leader/ car builder here (distant future) and I'm formulating some plans that involve buying parts cars, harvesting parts for race car, and then parting out parts car to recoup those costs.

I'm a little unsure about whether some of the parts I resell can be deducted from my official $500 budget.  Where it gets the most unclear is the "driver controls and comfort" section.

Anyway, here's a list of gray-area parts I imagine I could theoretically sell from a parts car and whether or not I think they could be deducted from my official $500 budget.  If anybody could fill in some of the blanks and correct any errors I've made I would appreciate the input!

Part--------------------------------Deductible (y/n)-----------------
Driver seat..............................n
Passenger and rear seats......y
front bench seat......................50%?
all three mirrors......................n
driver manual window crank....n
driver power window motor.....n
other manual window cranks..y
other window motors..............y
whole dashboard....................y
buttons/gauges from dash......n
headlight&taillight assemblies..???
marker lights/other peripheral...???
windshield/driver side window..n
other glass................................y
trunk lid/ hatch..........................y
all other body panels................???

I feel like I'm forgetting some parts that I was unsure of so feel free to add any of the less-obvious parts and whether or not they count.  In my head, parts that are required to race (like doors) shouldn't count when resold but maybe I'm wrong on that?  I figure the final resale on my parts cars will be to the masher for scrap weight so I don't want to sell off heavy things like doors to someone else if that money isn't going to count.

And before anyone jumps in with "It doesn't really matter if you fudge a little on this stuff,"  I know that.  But I want to try to stick to the letter of the rules as strictly as possible and build the best race car I can without bending any of them.  Personality flaw, I guess.

Thanks everyone!

2 (edited by Spank 2019-12-26 11:03 AM)

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

sticking to the letter of the law will require you to ask The Man rather than the opinions of a bunch of us keyboard warriors.

If you're going to be THAT GUY when you get to tech and want to argue / prove you only spent $500 or less, then you are going to want to be as specific as possible asking these questions/categorizations of the judge/BS inspector who is going to look over your car. For that, you need to know what race you are planning to attend and when. Once you have that, you can reach out to HQ and find out who the likely judges are going to be for that event, then you can directly email those particular judges and get their take / interpretation of the rules and build your car to tailor it to their interpretation, bring your documentation, and then you'll be golden.

If you are unsure where to start, go head and email Eric Rood directly. He LOVES talking nitty-gritty details, and will even go so far as to help you break down the BS value of, say, selling off fancy brass exhaust manifold nuts and wave washers and swapping on something cheaper like junkyard "pocket parts" of rusty nuts and pieces of soup can cut into circles with hand-punched holes in the center of each one.

Ooh, and if you are into chemistry, you can start going into the silver content of the solder that you can salvage from the car's electrical circuits and...



In short: no matter what you sell, for calculations you cannot go negative in value on either the car purchased or the parts cars. So you can add $0 value parts to your $0 value car all day long,  but you can't sell $3000 of parts off of your $2000 car and claim the undocumented parts you added still keep the car below $500 in value.

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Waaaayyy overthinking this but ok.  Anything and everything in the interior, yes.  Headlights, yes. Glass, yes.  Leave windshield. Outside mirrors, leave them.  Taillights, leave them.  If you want to be anal and sell the OEM taillights, replace them with trailer lights and crediting the difference, knock yourself out but that's just creating another point of failure to keep you off the track.  Windshield is same story.  If you sell off body panels, you still have to replace them with something else and those replacements are not "free" items.  Everything has a cost regardless of how you got it.  In general, make it reliable, make it safe and make it fun should be primary goals to start.  Worry about budget later.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Some clarification:

I'm not going to argue BS laps with the judges or worry about it at all, really.  I just want the satisfaction of knowing I didn't cheat to get what I got, if that makes sense.  Like if I get some laps I can tell myself "they had to do that to even out the field because I made my car so awesome with only $500"

Also, stuff like windshield and brake lights, I'm talking about from a parts donor car. so it doesn't need ANY of that stuff, I'm just looking to maximize legitimate resale dollars.

To be more specific, I'm planning on running a 80s Ford Ranger.  I'd like to buy a late 90s explorer and take its rear axle, leaf springs/mounts, and brake system and sell off the rest of it.  I'd also like to get a 80s/90s F150 and take its front springs and radiator, selling the rest.  So for the explorer and/or F150 the only concern about selling like a whole door (besides no one wanting it) is whether or not that sale price is going to count as deductible or if I'm shooting myself in the foot reducing the weight when I sell it to the masher by the pound.

I know I can't offset cost below zero dollars.  I'm just hoping to get my donor car expenditures down TO zero.

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Wow, still way over thinking it. Don't do a plus or minus anything to figure a basis on a parts / donor car. Remember that any dollars spent on suspension and brakes do not count against the $500. If you pay more than $100 for an 80s Ford Ranger you are getting ripped off. If you need parts to make the 80s Ford Ranger track worthy then estimate a junk yard value and add it to the $100 or less that you paid for the Ranger. Just that simple. Doesn't matter that you got the part from a salvage yard, a donor car or your daily driver.

To be brutally honest, short of an LS swap, I don't think anybody is going to care how much you spend on an 80s Ford Ranger. Drop Phil and Eric a note describing your plan for an 80s Ranger. I am certain that one of them will tell you to have at it and to put notes and receipts (only on the Ranger) together for a book at your first tech. Good luck.

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Suspension counts.

Obviously we're not going to be a contender for an overall win as a new team driving a pickup with an inline 4, but we hope to arrive with a well-prepped vehicle and I'm expecting the judges to at least ask what we did when they do a bounce test and it doesn't bounce. 

I expect my parts donors to be practically junk vehicles to begin with so making back what I spend on them shouldn't be too hard, so yeah, overthinking this.  But my point is I'm trying to stick to the letter of the rules and the rules don't spell this part out very well.

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Show up with an 80 ranger with every suspension mod possible and have fun in class b or even c with a 4 cyl   doesnt matter what you do or how much you spend unless is has some sort of race motor in it they wont care.  Promise    Also trucks are wicked fun,  I raced an s10 last year and its a riot with how bulky it is but we can turn with the best of them.

959 Toyota Tercel   6x Lemons loser

New England Area roll cages send me an email I'm in Central MA

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

The rules say that if it wouldn't count towards the budget if you bought it, then it can't be deducted from the budget if you sell it. This seems to be lost on a lot of people, but at the same time seems to be rarely enforced.

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Spank wrote:

In short: no matter what you sell, for calculations you cannot go negative in value on either the car purchased or the parts cars. So you can add $0 value parts to your $0 value car all day long,  but you can't sell $3000 of parts off of your $2000 car and claim the undocumented parts you added still keep the car below $500 in value.

I've heard this a lot by plenty of other people but the rule does not say you can not go negative.

4.7: Scavenger Sales: If you sell pieces off of your car, the money that comes back in can be used to offset the initial purchase price. (This only applies to stuff that counts toward the $500 total; the sale of exempt items–like wheels, glass, etc.–can NOT be used to offset the initial purchase price.) Just be prepared to convince some exceedingly skeptical judges of the validity of all those transactions.

If you limit teams starting with a true sub-$500 car to whatever zeros out the car puts them at a disadvantage to a team starting with higher priced car. A team with a $300 car would be limited to $300 in salvage sales where a team starting with a $2500 car could sell off $2500 in stuff. The $300 team would have a total budget of $800 and the $2500 team could spend up to $3000.

I've never seen this heavily scrutinized by the judges like an IRS audit.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

10 (edited by Guildenstern 2019-12-30 01:37 PM)

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

I understood the no negative to mean you’re not getting bonus laps.
So if you buy a car for $800, sell $1,000 of stuff and then put $150 in go fast on it, you don't get to say “I’m at $-50 so I should get 5 BONUS laps”

No amount UNDER $500 matters.

In the end the accounting doesn’t matter as much as just doing your build right. Because you’ll only ever get book checked if your build doesn’t seem to be in the spirit of the rules.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Troy wrote:

I've heard this a lot by plenty of other people but the rule does not say you can not go negative.

4.7: Scavenger Sales: If you sell pieces off of your car, the money that comes back in can be used to offset the initial purchase price.

The part in bold is where the rules say you cannot go negative. If the initial purchase price is $2500, you can offset up to $2500 by selling parts, effectively meaning you got the car "for free" and you may now spend a full $500 on prepping it (not counting the exempt safety items and so forth). If you sell $3000 in parts, that's nice, but you can't claim that this represents a $3000 offset, as that would offset more than just the initial purchase price, so no, you can't then turn around and spend $1000 on prepping your "cheaper than free because we're starting at negative $500" car and still claim you've spent only a net $500.

If this weren't the case, there would be no limit to teams saying "Wow, we didn't realize until we started selling parts that our car had a really rare optional item that we sold to some collector dude for $20,000 as shown on this handwritten receipt. That's how we bought all this fancy speed stuff while staying within our budget, because we started at negative $17,500."

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

All this drama and dialog.....Just buy a $500 crapcan,cage it and go racing......
You're not gonna win overall your first time out,just go out and have fun....
If the judges take a shine to you,you might get a trophy,and thats even better than an overall win....
Don't try to overthink it,or exploit any loopholes, and just get out there,dammit!

45+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

mharrell wrote:

If this weren't the case, there would be no limit to teams saying "Wow, we didn't realize until we started selling parts that our car had a really rare optional item that we sold to some collector dude for $20,000 as shown on this handwritten receipt. That's how we bought all this fancy speed stuff while staying within our budget, because we started at negative $17,500."

Well, there is one limit still:

1.4: Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers–and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin’ bastids–may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In 80 races and counting, we’ve claimed cars precisely twice. Don’t piss us off so much that we raise that to three.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

we bought our 84 Trans Am (RIP) for $850, running driving L69 car, probably rare. I sold about $1500 in parts so the value was $0. too bad you can't go into the negative.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

I'm imagining a judge during BS inspection absent-mindedly riffing the edges of 500 bucks in a money clip when they come across too many cheaty go-fast parts... or would that be too subtle?

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

...a judge during BS inspection absent-mindedly riffing the edges of 500 bucks in a money clip...

For better or worse it would be an empty threat, as judges can't claim cars. That's reserved for the organizers and both Jay and Nick have indicated that they really, really don't want to go to all the trouble involved in doing so. That pretty much just leaves penalty laps as a deterrent, which again circles back to not being able to assert a negative value for the car as a defense against spending too much.

BigBird wrote:

All this drama and dialog.....Just buy a $500 crapcan,cage it and go racing......

Ultimately this is the correct answer.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

moparfan wrote:

Remember that any dollars spent on suspension and brakes do not count against the $500.

Brakes yes, suspension no.  Although you can replace safety related suspension items like ball joints, etc.

4.2.1: Beside the items and processes listed in Section 3, the following are considered safety-related and therefore exempt:
Wheels, tires, wheel bearings, balljoints, and brake components
Exhaust systems downstream of the header/exhaust manifold (NOTE: Turbos and related components are NOT exempt from the $500 limit. Nice try.)
Windshields and wipers.
Driver comfort & information (steering wheel, shifter, gauges, pedals, cool suits, vents, heaters, radio)
All fuel hoses, fuel fittings, fuel filters, and related mounts
All fuel-system components upstream of the fuel pump, including tanks/cells, mounts, fillers, vents, etc. (NOTE: Fuel pumps, carburetors, injection pumps, computers, and individual injectors are NOT exempt from the $500 limit.)

bs

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

I'm looking at this from a perspective closer to what Spank said, throwing free parts at a free car by buying junkers, taking what i want and reselling the rest.  So this could result in a vehicle that looks like a lot has been upgraded but really most of it cost nothing.

I guess the two big ones that seem the most likely to make a difference are the driver seat, and the taillights.  These things are actually likely to sell and bring in some money, depending on year and condition, but seem a little fuzzy in the rules.

I would say that the driver's seat really shouldn't count.  driver comfort/safety.  But passenger seats count so logically a bench seat should count half or you could argue 2/3 if it seats three.

The rules say you need one functioning brake light so I would say that if the car in question has a third brake light, the taillight assemblies are not needed for safety and could be sold on ebay against your $500 budget.  Older cars without a third brake light, maybe only one brake light assembly can count.  Seems open to judge's interpretation for sure.

In the end I doubt it will matter.  If it comes out that close in the final ledger I guess I'll just find out on inspection day. big_smile

Re: Resale value deductible from $500 budget?

3.F.1 Driver’s Seat
3.F.1.a General Driver’s Seat Regs. Driver’s seatback must reach above middle of helmet or higher. One-piece, purpose-built racing seats with properly located, factory-provided shoulder-harness holes are mandatory. Molded plastic seats of ABS or similar material are not allowed.

// So, since you can't use a standard car seat, and you HAVE TO remove it, you might as well sell it.

cheseroo wrote:

Taillights, leave them.  If you want to be anal and sell the OEM taillights, replace them with trailer lights and crediting the difference, knock yourself out but that's just creating another point of failure to keep you off the track.