Topic: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Surprisingly, after 6+ years of racing, we have never been at event where fueling was a hot pit activity- its always been paddock at gman and autobahn.

Normally, on a stop there’s not only fuel, but check /fill oil check tire psi, clean windshield, change ice Etc

How will this work in the hot pit fuel scenario?   Is there a limit on who, how many “over the wall”?  Once fuel is complete can you be over the wall in your flip flops and wife-beater? 

Is there a line where a repair becomes a paddock repair vs a hot pit repair?

Team Orca

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

There's no limit on the number of people, although my guess is that if you have a large crew out there doing nothing, you'll be told to stop doing that, as there's nothing you can do in the hot pit that would require a lot of people anyway. Everyone over the wall must be in full gear at all times while the track is hot.

The default rule is that in the hot pit you may (1) add fuel, (2) swap drivers, and (3) add ice to the cool suit system. That's it, nothing else. Anything else requires a trip to the paddock. There have been many discussions about whether other activities should be allowed, such as checking oil or cleaning the windshield, but the bottom line is that it is just fuel, driver, and ice. I understand there have been some events where it was explicitly announced that other specified activities would be permitted because of unusual circumstances, but that's rare.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

3 (edited by egesledder 2020-06-15 08:27 AM)

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Having raced both at Gingerman and a bunch in Colorado with hot pits now, here are some other things to note for efficient and safe hot pit stops:

- Bring a wagon of some kind to haul your cans, it helps

- Write your team number/name on your drip pan to signal your driver where to pit.  Its hard to tell which group of people in full gear with helmet shields down waving their arms is your team.

- Write your team name on your extinguisher, extinguishers get left on the pit wall fairly often on accident.

- Base pit stops on spaces available in the hot pit lane, not just on fuel/time.  It sucks pulling in and having to wait on a spot to open

- In that same theme, make sure you don't take up a ton of room while you're refueling

- Its even more important to not speed in the hot pit lane, so make sure everyone is aware of that, they're much more strict on hot pit lane speeds

- Having a motor that doesn't burn oil is worth a lot more in the hot pit setup.  Do anything you can to get oil consumption down, or add capacity somehow to reduce oil stops.  Same with any other fluids.  We actually rebuild or swap our motor whenever it starts burning any oil, even if the compression and leak down checks out ok.


I think there are benefits to a hot pit lane setup, not just the safety aspect.  The main thing is that you aren't penalized by getting to the track late and having a pit setup way out in the boonies.  We're able to do a complete hot pit stop in about 90 seconds and be off the track about 2 minutes total, no matter where we end up parking in the pits.

Petrosexual Racing - 4.9 HT swap/Trashback Miata
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=35746
BFE GP '18 - 1st in C, High Plains Drifter -19 - 1st in B/Overall
Uh oh, Spaghettios...

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Gingerman has hot pits?
I always saw fueling at pump or in your space in the paddock

MBTL Racing

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Its new for this race as part of the COVID changes.

Petrosexual Racing - 4.9 HT swap/Trashback Miata
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=35746
BFE GP '18 - 1st in C, High Plains Drifter -19 - 1st in B/Overall
Uh oh, Spaghettios...

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

New for this race.   Paddock was resurfaced.  Coincidence?

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

mharrell wrote:

Everyone over the wall must be in full gear at all times while the track is hot.

This is certainly true, but at every east coast race I have been to, you can't even get to the cold side of the pit wall without full gear. There is usually only 1 entrance to pit lane, and there is someone watching as you pass through the entrance to check for gear, including having your helmet chin strap fixed in place. Its hard to communicate with your teammates when everyone has helmets on, so that's another reason why everyone should understand their roles during refueling before you head to pit lane.

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

New for this race.   Paddock was resurfaced.  Coincidence?

The paddock was resurfaced last year so it's had a whole winter to cure so that's not an issue.

9 (edited by BigPappy 2020-06-16 11:20 AM)

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Couple of more questions for those with more experience with this:

1- It's happened where the car won't start after heat soak- what happens then? (Gman is UPHILL in hot pit- yikes if we have to push it we did it once with big willy and about died)  Do we push / or do we have to wait for a tow (we've already demonstrated we don't have the expertise to fix the problem in the first place).

2- it's happened a lot where the driver notices a mechanical issue more than 1/2 way through the stint.   If hot pit is the only allowed fueling, does that mean that we either need to have him come in, top off, and then all run to the paddoc to fix the issue, or 2- if he comes into the paddoc first, do we have to send the next guy out to do a lap and then come in?

3- Once fueling is done and we're strapping in the next victim, do the "helpers" have to do the strap in with their helmets on, or can they then take them off (provided they have the obligatory COVID face covering?.

I guess in reference to #2- is fueling in the paddoc FORBIDDEN?

Team Orca

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

From my experience:

1 - Yea, push or tow unfortunately.

2 - Fueling in the paddock is not allowed while the track is hot.  So yea, either before or after fixing an issue.  Depending one when in the stint it happens, we normally refuel whenever the car comes in if over half the stint is done.  Our team has a strict driver swap policy whenever someone gets a black flag, so we'll also refuel and get the offending driver out when they come in, then have the new driver drive to the judges and meet the last driver there for the penalty.

3 - Anyone past the hot pit wall/fence has to have helmets on and shields down at all times.  Its not too hard to get everything squared away with helmets on honestly.

Petrosexual Racing - 4.9 HT swap/Trashback Miata
https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=35746
BFE GP '18 - 1st in C, High Plains Drifter -19 - 1st in B/Overall
Uh oh, Spaghettios...

11

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

BigPappy wrote:

Couple of more questions for those with more experience with this:

1- It's happened where the car won't start after heat soak- what happens then? (Gman is UPHILL in hot pit- yikes if we have to push it we did it once with big willy and about died)  Do we push / or do we have to wait for a tow (we've already demonstrated we don't have the expertise to fix the problem in the first place).

2- it's happened a lot where the driver notices a mechanical issue more than 1/2 way through the stint.   If hot pit is the only allowed fueling, does that mean that we either need to have him come in, top off, and then all run to the paddoc to fix the issue, or 2- if he comes into the paddoc first, do we have to send the next guy out to do a lap and then come in?

3- Once fueling is done and we're strapping in the next victim, do the "helpers" have to do the strap in with their helmets on, or can they then take them off (provided they have the obligatory COVID face covering?.

I guess in reference to #2- is fueling in the paddoc FORBIDDEN?


My experience:

1 - Never had this issue, but I expect that it might be track dependent. One thing is for sure, you NEVER want to make your car go backwards in the hot pit area! I saw a team do that one time and I thought that the official was going to tear their heads off.

2 - either situation works, its your preference. Depending on the severity of the mechanical issue, you might be better off coming in to the paddock first to sort out the problem before going back on track. I don't know the Gingerman layout, but if the entrance is up-stream of the hot pit area, you might not have to do any additional laps to fuel up. For us, NH is like that, you have the opportunity to pass the fueling area before heading out on the track. At Thompson, that doesn't work because the entrance to the track is after the pit area.

3 - NO! Helmets must remain on at all times in the pit area, even when strapping in the next driver. If someone saw you do that, they would NOT be happy. Its a bit awkward with the helmets on, I'm always banging my head against some part of the car during that process.

For tracks where hot pit fueling is mandated, there is NO fueling in the paddock area while the track is hot. You can fuel your car in the paddock only when the track is cold (before and after the race). The only exception is for tracks that have fuel pumps, you can fill up at the pump which is normally located somewhere in the paddock. Fueling at your paddock spot with hand held cans is another thing that might get you kicked out.

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

RSB wrote:

Fueling at your paddock spot with hand held cans is another thing that might get you kicked out.

True, with one very important exception. If someone manages to end up in the paddock during the race with an empty car (such as after being towed in for running out of fuel on track) and there are no pumps available, the team may very contritely ask the judges for permission to add some fuel in order to drive to the hot pit, including driving a lap to reach the hot pit if necessary. If things are slow enough in the penalty box, a judge may agree to come watch the fueling. You may have to wait a bit for this to happen. Don't expect them to allow you to fill up the car; you'll be told just to add enough to get out there without running dry again and you should therefore expect to pit immediately.

Lemons HQ doesn't want people to try to push a dry car from the paddock backwards into the hot pits for fueling or some such nonsense, so this is an exception that may be granted at their discretion. At an event where paddock fueling is forbidden, though, don't try to sneak some fuel into it without their permission. That would not be taken kindly at all.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

So using the fuel pump is still allowed?

MBTL Racing

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Ratdoggy wrote:

So using the fuel pump is still allowed?

According to HQ the plan at the moment is to allow use of the track's fuel pump, subject to social distancing, subject to change as circumstances develop, and so forth.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

BigPappy wrote:

2- it's happened a lot where the driver notices a mechanical issue more than 1/2 way through the stint.   If hot pit is the only allowed fueling, does that mean that we either need to have him come in, top off, and then all run to the paddoc to fix the issue, or 2- if he comes into the paddoc first, do we have to send the next guy out to do a lap and then come in?

If you're lucky, they'll have both ends of the pit open so you can enter the hot pit at the turn 11 end and drive to a hot pit space to fuel then send the car out.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

16 (edited by Bayley 2020-06-18 08:59 AM)

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Guildenstern wrote:

If you're lucky, they'll have both ends of the pit open so you can enter the hot pit at the turn 11 end and drive to a hot pit space to fuel then send the car out.

From previous conversations I've had with the power that be, I suspect that we'll still be required to make a full lap of the paddock before re-entering the track at the top of the hot pits like normal.

EDIT: only if exiting the hot pits after fueling.

The Pentastar whisperer

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

this was asking about full lap of the track. As in pit in from track>paddock>Fix stuff>track entrance>lap>pit in>refuel>back out to track.

Which seems, obtuse given the track is designed for hot pit entry “up stream” in the paddock because of course you want to be able to go straight from the paddock to the hot pit without going on the track First if you’re only allowed to fuel in hot pit.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Guildenstern wrote:

this was asking about full lap of the track. As in pit in from track>paddock>Fix stuff>track entrance>lap>pit in>refuel>back out to track.

Which seems, obtuse given the track is designed for hot pit entry “up stream” in the paddock because of course you want to be able to go straight from the paddock to the hot pit without going on the track First if you’re only allowed to fuel in hot pit.

I agree 100% with not wanting to make an unnecessary lap to renter the hot-pits, but I get the feeling that the organizers are trying to deviate as little as possible from previous formats. I don't like it either, but I'll bet you a dollar to donuts that this is how it's going to roll.

The Pentastar whisperer

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Bayley wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

this was asking about full lap of the track. As in pit in from track>paddock>Fix stuff>track entrance>lap>pit in>refuel>back out to track.

Which seems, obtuse given the track is designed for hot pit entry “up stream” in the paddock because of course you want to be able to go straight from the paddock to the hot pit without going on the track First if you’re only allowed to fuel in hot pit.

I agree 100% with not wanting to make an unnecessary lap to renter the hot-pits, but I get the feeling that the organizers are trying to deviate as little as possible from previous formats. I don't like it either, but I'll bet you a dollar to donuts that this is how it's going to roll.

Are you bringing donuts?

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: Gingerman refueling rules what’s allowed?

Brett85p wrote:
Bayley wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

this was asking about full lap of the track. As in pit in from track>paddock>Fix stuff>track entrance>lap>pit in>refuel>back out to track.

Which seems, obtuse given the track is designed for hot pit entry “up stream” in the paddock because of course you want to be able to go straight from the paddock to the hot pit without going on the track First if you’re only allowed to fuel in hot pit.

I agree 100% with not wanting to make an unnecessary lap to renter the hot-pits, but I get the feeling that the organizers are trying to deviate as little as possible from previous formats. I don't like it either, but I'll bet you a dollar to donuts that this is how it's going to roll.

Are you bringing donuts?

Mmmmm.... Do-nuts

The Pentastar whisperer