Topic: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

Yes, I know I've got only 2 weeks to get the cage in...

Looking for some solid input:

The sChitroen has an interesting body- large sill channels down either side, a large hump across the middle where the seats bolt,and a very recessed floorpan.

I don't know the strength/thickness of the metal of the sill box section running down each side, but that's where I would normally want to anchor the main legs of the cage, both the main hoop and the front and rear legs. If I go the additional 5-6" down to the floorpan, it looks like it would be too inboard and would require  nascar style door bars, which I'd rather not have.

How should I approach this? Notch out box off the sill with a little pocket down to the floorpan level with some 3/16" steel or just plate the sill and put the tube atop there? Or? I want to do the cage "right" or to FIA spec, so that,if the car survives Lemons, it could conceivably run in some future Performance Rallys (historic class).

Some pics of what I'm talking about:

B pillar on the passenger side
http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2619450/DSC03523sm.jpg

Behind driver's seat (will be replaced with race bucket) You can just see the cross member where the seat will sit atop.

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2619454/DSC03525sm.jpg

Looking along the sill toward the front of the car:
http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2619430/DSC03526sm.jpg


Front leg attachment area-- again the sill versus floorpan discrepency
http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2619434/DSC03524sm.jpg

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

now this is complicated so stay with me here, get a 3lb hammer and give the rocker box section a good medium sized wack where you want to install the plates, if it obliterates and crushes like the french government in a war then go with your cut out boxed in section idea. if it bouces the hammer off and has little deflection, build on it.

I bet ther rockers are rather strong. still weld a plate on top and on the vertical face of the rocker and even if you wish one of the floor of the car too, this way the load is transmited to the flat floor.

I cant be sure as ive only driven a citroen sm around the block, not caged one. but as a person that builds cages daily, id try to mount on that rocker, if in doubt use larger and thicker plates

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

this is a simular design i did when i built Squidbreath's 280Merc

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/P2010009.jpg

4 (edited by Spank 2010-02-17 12:29 AM)

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

I hear what you're saying, I'm just worried a bit that the cage will actually not extend any lower than the seat of my pants, and if the car flips over there's absolutely no roof (fiberglass) or A-B-orC-pillar support-- we're talkin' pancake. I'm worried it could punch the cage down crushing those sills. You can see in the below pic how you actually step over and down into the car. Look closely and you'll see they (sills) extend down and into the black under the car.

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2611491/DSC03497sm_detail.jpg

I'm not disagreeing with you, just providing more information. I'm serious-- those things are like pontoons-- I think they get their strength from their box section size, not from the thickness of the metal.

I'll try the hammer thing, too.

--Spank

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

A scitroen---nice!

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

find your best 1/4" drill bit, some oil, and drill a hole where you're going to mount the cage plates. see how thick the material is. i think that box is a perimiter frame pc. and should be good to set the cage on.  i would lengthen the plates some just to be sure. 


this thing was built in france.........

7 (edited by bam2002 2010-02-17 06:55 AM)

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

The rails ARE the frame. the car is a unibody but a flimsy one.  On a DS you can take off the roof doors and all the fenders and the car is drivable.
The photo with the plates on the top and the side of the box area would be the best way.
Also be careful the gas tank in under the back seat.

If you can get behind the dash, the area where the front suspension mounts to the firewall is the strongest part of the car.

Also Be careful if you hammer or drill them.  Your fuel and brake lines run  inside.

EuroTrash E30 - Lemons South 08 (cooling probs) 24th /CMP  Spring 09 (fuel tank damage) one day on track 69th /Lemons South 09 (Hit by an Escort) 27th
MSR Tx, 10 2oth, no issues other than rain. /CHump Homestead Miami 10- 2nd place.

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

Also if I recall from the last time  cut one in 1/2..   it was a rusty basket case.

the sides are doubled up.. So they are folded over themselves.

You know if the 60s  the DS won the Paris Dakar (sp) rally.  you may want to go out and look for some historic photos of how they cadged those cars.

EuroTrash E30 - Lemons South 08 (cooling probs) 24th /CMP  Spring 09 (fuel tank damage) one day on track 69th /Lemons South 09 (Hit by an Escort) 27th
MSR Tx, 10 2oth, no issues other than rain. /CHump Homestead Miami 10- 2nd place.

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

here is a little citroen heresy: http://citroenid19hotrod.blogspot.com/s … results=50

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

10 (edited by DaveH 2010-02-17 10:20 AM)

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/P2010009.jpg

This.

If you're really worried about it, gusset over to the B pillar.  The rear stays should connect to the shock towers.

In the picture below, you also have a hole in the box section so you can inspect the condition of the steel.  It also looks like its at least 16 ga, with a strengthening plate over the corner - I wouldn't worry about it.

http://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2619450/DSC03523sm.jpg

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

building the box / L section over the sill is a wise move. you may also tie into the pillar itself. additionally, running a lower bar along the sill might be helpful if you have some extra steel.

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

just put more weld on it, your runing low on time!

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

I would  grab a piece on angle and weld that to the tubing and the sill ,it  would be super strong not very good looking.

Pit Crew Revenge Racing   Rolling chicanelimo,95Lamdspeeder,Gimp Pimp Cadi,300zx Car show kaboom!! 90 Wagovan, mazda v8 Lemons LOGO TATTOO!  Aces 84 Cadi Eldo Briattz I O E WINNER
Class C win with LemonOdy Cannonball Run Whambulance !EX K Captain
Lemons Trophy Truck ShaGuar Baby!

Re: Crunchtime Cage Construction Question

Had the same problem with a POS Mustang I caged....rockers are questionable, but are the main structural element in the unibody... consider "floating" the cage, i.e. weld it in with large angle/plate mounting pads, then through bolt all the way outside to large backup plates. Then weld a piece of channel/angle/tubing underneath between the mounting pads like subframe connectors....any time left, tie it into the pillars with gussets....and tie the seat mountings into the cage, so it "moves" with the cage in a side impact...this also keeps the seat down if you flip....seen weakened floorpans here in the City of Road Salt let the seat come up far enough to biff your head on the main hoop...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....