Topic: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

I remember reading something last year about AMB's patent expiring this month (might actually be tomorrow?). Has anyone caught wind of people trying to make affordable subscription-less transponders? Not that I am capable of making it, but the technology behind it does not justify how much AMB charges for it... and I'd love to see some competition pop up in this field.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

2 (edited by TheEngineer 2023-02-13 05:25 PM)

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

I want to believe, but I'm not holding my breath. 30 seconds of google says that the one expiring may not even be the latest patent they hold.

The question is would outside transponders work. Meaning is the track side gear all AMB hardware that simply wouldn't listen to someone else's device? I'm sure the MyLaps site would refuse to show results from non-official transponders, so now you're in a weird place where some cars can see post race results, and some don't. I honestly don't know anything about the track side equipment to know what it can and can't do in terms of unofficial transponders.


Fun fact, anything with an FCC approval typically has teardown pictures online. For example here's the X2
https://fccid.io/NXYX2CLUBTX/Internal-P … al-3155994
and every device they've registered - https://fccid.io/NXY


RF is literally black magic to me. But I do design PCBs for work, and design enclosures. If someone were to be able to confirm that outside transponders would work, and that making an open source version wouldn't violate other patents, and could do the firmware and help with some component choices, man I'd be up to help with an open source transponder.

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Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

I may be able to help some here.  Brother is an EE and a patent agent.  I remember running this by him a few years ago and it seemed like the tech is pretty trivial.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

TheEngineer wrote:

The question is would outside transponders work. Meaning is the track side gear all AMB hardware that simply wouldn't listen to someone else's device? I'm sure the MyLaps site would refuse to show results from non-official transponders, so now you're in a weird place where some cars can see post race results, and some don't. I honestly don't know anything about the track side equipment to know what it can and can't do in terms of unofficial transponders.

This is really the big and important question. I also don't know much about the track-side equipment, other than Lemons owns its own (patented) decoders. So anything you design open-source has to be functional within the parameters of the decoders, which may or may not register outside transponders. I think—though I'm not certain—that the timing software we use can accept a variety of inputs, so it seems like the lynchpin is having friendly decoders.

Of course, if you can manage to create sensible output from your own open-source decoders, then you're most of the way there. Then it's just defending yourself against imminent AMB litigation.

I've exhausted my half-knowledge of the timing system, but if someone is really serious about it, they can probably talk to a T&S person who actually knows things at a race at some point this year.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

I believe all the transponder is doing is transmitting a number.  The magic that figures out the lap time and who is who is done on the timing computer side.  Since there do exist transponders that are not registered with AMB/MyLaps that get picked up and displayed in results, I would wildly speculate that a knockoff transponder would work in the same manner but you just don't get the lap time details.  My personal opinion is that there have been a few companies in motorsports that have been overly greedy in their business dealings and MyLaps is most definitely on that list.  I'm pretty sure that if they felt threatened they would initiate a lawsuit against anybody invading their space through what I call "Rule of Bigness" litigation.  That is the merit of their case is irrelevant, they would solely use their size to litigate.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

cheseroo wrote:

I believe all the transponder is doing is transmitting a number.  The magic that figures out the lap time and who is who is done on the timing computer side.  Since there do exist transponders that are not registered with AMB/MyLaps that get picked up and displayed in results, I would wildly speculate that a knockoff transponder would work in the same manner but you just don't get the lap time details.  My personal opinion is that there have been a few companies in motorsports that have been overly greedy in their business dealings and MyLaps is most definitely on that list.  I'm pretty sure that if they felt threatened they would initiate a lawsuit against anybody invading their space through what I call "Rule of Bigness" litigation.  That is the merit of their case is irrelevant, they would solely use their size to litigate.

Where is the "Like" button?

By all accounts, AMB has a monopoly on motorsports timing equipment.  Hell, they are even on RC cars!

I (think) *most* of us were OK with the price of an owned transponder, but the newer subscription based models are a nothing but an overcomplicated money grab.

I'm just glad we have an older one that still works.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

I think at least one of our T&S people would probably let you run an open-source transponder as a second transponder to test it out. At the very least, they'd enjoy talking to you about it. Suffice to say, most T&S people (and race organizers) have a suboptimal opinion of MyLaps.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

some more googling. The patent expiring appears to be this one titled: System for determining a position of a moving transponder
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6864829B2/en

However, there are other ones like this one titled: Detecting the passing between a transmitter and a detector
This one does not expire until 2032, and seems quite relevant.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120087421A1/en


I agree that the transponder itself is not a complicated thing. The over simplified explanation is that it's a micro controller that is waiting for an input signal from the loop to trigger it's own broadcast to identify itself. That isn't hard, generally speaking. But the question is what data do you need to transmit to be recognized by the track side hardware, and is any of that covered by a patent.


I would love an open source transmitter, but I do not need to be on the receiving end of a cease and desist from a company that almost certainly would issue one. But I would jump at the chance to help if someone could prove that there is a legal way to do it.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

I couldn't have said it better myself re: cheseroo. Transponder rental costs for HPDE's, TA's, races, etc isn't breaking the bank... but I'd much rather put that money back into the community rather than feeding a company that monopolized simple technology to exploit a non-profit community.

I don't know enough about patents or RF to provide anything helpful, but I wanted to bring this up in hopes that someone out there knows, or knows someone, who can exploit this expired patent to take a jab at AMB. However, I'd bet that AMB's legal team is larger than their engineering team, which likely means that they covered their bases.

If anything comes out of it... I'll certainly be a follower.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

My brother is looking into this and seems to think there are many ways to patent around problems.  He's curious what the track antenna looks like.  I never really paid attention to that but it seems like it's a single cable run across the track and not a loop.  Also wondering what the composition of it is, single/multi wire? etc.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

Been playing with duplicating a transponder. I think the only way for them to detect if transponder is fake, if the ID number is not a number they issued. So if use their numbers, than it should be alright.

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Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

kakarot1232001 wrote:

Been playing with duplicating a transponder. I think the only way for them to detect if transponder is fake, if the ID number is not a number they issued. So if use their numbers, than it should be alright.

I have recorded and cloned my transponder. I stopped short of demodulating the signal, but it looked pretty straightforward (transponder ID encoded in ASK/OOK... signal was CW).

I could imagine that with the proper circuitry it would be pretty trivial to make a device with some dip switches to set the ID transmitted... but I'm just a software guy.

I can provide or create a high-quality IQ file of a transponder if anyone is interested in pursuing this.

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Everything dies baby that's a fact,
But maybe everything that dies someday comes back?

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

cheseroo wrote:

My brother is looking into this and seems to think there are many ways to patent around problems.  He's curious what the track antenna looks like.  I never really paid attention to that but it seems like it's a single cable run across the track and not a loop.  Also wondering what the composition of it is, single/multi wire? etc.

I am going from memory here but my transponder (old yellow one) transmits around 3.5 MHz which means the wavelength is between 75 and 80 meters. A quarter-wave antenna puts us somewhere around 65 feet which is roughly the distance back and forth across most tracks. I'm almost certain it is a loop. The buried antenna doesn't have to be very good for how these work.

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Everything dies baby that's a fact,
But maybe everything that dies someday comes back?

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

derekste wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

My brother is looking into this and seems to think there are many ways to patent around problems.  He's curious what the track antenna looks like.  I never really paid attention to that but it seems like it's a single cable run across the track and not a loop.  Also wondering what the composition of it is, single/multi wire? etc.

I am going from memory here but my transponder (old yellow one) transmits around 3.5 MHz which means the wavelength is between 75 and 80 meters. A quarter-wave antenna puts us somewhere around 65 feet which is roughly the distance back and forth across most tracks. I'm almost certain it is a loop. The buried antenna doesn't have to be very good for how these work.

In their manuals, its a loop going through the track. one at the finish like typically. I think the loop is like 3 ft wide, and spans the track width.

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15 (edited by gus 2023-02-22 05:17 PM)

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

There's another thread here where I went into details, but I have done a bit of work in this area, it's part of the reason I have about 3 X2 and 4 TR2 transponders. (The other part is that it costs about $20 more for a new transponder every year, and I feel like that hurts MyLaps bottom line more)


The "new gen" (X2 and TR2) transponders transmit an encrypted packet and pseudo-random intervals. This packet contains not only the transponder number, but also some timing information among other things. The period of packet transmission is non-constant. If the receiving hardware received packets at a time other than when the last packet said it would be sent, the packets are ignored. This prevents any kind of simple replay attack where you send the same packet over and over, as every message is different and encrypted and must follow a sequence. It may be possible to record the packets and the timing from a transponder for say 24 hours and replay it.

The X2 design is very good (from a security perspective), so there's no much you can do to them. Due to some design "oversights" in the TR2 design (thanks MyLaps, really, thank you), it's possible to extract the firmware and encryption keys from the transponder. It would then be conceivable for one to "unlock" transponders to bypass the yearly fee/robbery.

The "old gen" transponders are very simple. They have no encryption and can be easily and replicated with cheap hardware.


There's a few paths one could take, each with their own issues:
- You could hack/unlock your X2/TR2 to bypass the licensing (and the stupid direct-power fee, as they all have the same hardware), but it would rely on the Orbits(?) software not checking transponder ID's against an online MyLaps database of currently licensed transponders. This hack could work for a while, until MyLaps implemented countermeasures, unless T&S could disable these "features". It's a bit of a cat and mouse game.
- You could make your own "old gen" transponder, but you would need to pick an ID and hope no one is using it. This could again be thwarted by MyLaps if they have some check for valid transponder numbers, but some tracks aren't online and maybe the feature could be "disabled" or internet connectivity to MyLabs could be blocked by T&S.

The tricky part of all this is that the T&S hardware/software is expensive and without it you can't test out an open source transponder design or a hacked TR2, unless you're willing to "send it" during a race weekend and maybe get no laps for a while.


The bottom line is that there's no magic bullet for the masses, without cooperation from T&S. One or two hacked TR2 transponders can and will slide under the radar but a bunch of people using DIY or open source "old gen" transponders and not bothering to change the default ID will quickly cause a mess. If Lemons is willing to let someone test an open source transponder and also be ok with flagging/rejecting duplicate ID's then we could likely all have license fee free, hard-wired transponders, for $50 or less.


therood wrote:

I think at least one of our T&S people would probably let you run an open-source transponder as a second transponder to test it out. At the very least, they'd enjoy talking to you about it. Suffice to say, most T&S people (and race organizers) have a suboptimal opinion of MyLaps.

I'd very much like to take you up on that offer, if/when the mini gets rebuilt smile So far I assumed my MyLaps tomfoolery would be frowned upon by T&S.

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

gus wrote:
therood wrote:

I think at least one of our T&S people would probably let you run an open-source transponder as a second transponder to test it out. At the very least, they'd enjoy talking to you about it. Suffice to say, most T&S people (and race organizers) have a suboptimal opinion of MyLaps.

I'd very much like to take you up on that offer, if/when the mini gets rebuilt smile So far I assumed my MyLaps tomfoolery would be frowned upon by T&S.

Well, let's be clear: Lemons is not going to risk getting its shit turned off by MyLaps in any way, shape, or form. Some kind of hybrid system that involves hacking their firmware is gonna be a no, dog.

If someone were to build their own entire timing system—that's transponder to loop to decoder to (probably) software—that could operate completely independently of the MyLaps system without interfering with the MyLaps system, we might let you test it. Again, I don't have reign over T&S, but I can connect someone with T&S if they can build their own independent system.

That is not small potatoes, that is a huge undertaking.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

17

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

therood wrote:

That is not small potatoes, that is a huge undertaking.

Exactly right, building your own detector hardware is no joke. Your other point is why these non-commercial efforts will mostly never go anywhere. As much as racers and orgs dislike MyLaps and their money grabbing tactics, no one wants to risk being cut off.

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

Almost feels like it basically need to be an RFID system, like EZPass in essence.

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Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

duthehustle93 wrote:

I remember reading something last year about AMB's patent expiring this month (might actually be tomorrow?).

It is true that MyLaps oldest patent has expired, but they have over a dozen other patents that are active. Here is a link to their patents: https://patents.google.com/?assignee=my … p;sort=old

Here is the expired patent with the claims.

System for determining a position of a moving transponder
https://patents.google.com/patent/US200 … p;sort=old
Expired: 2023-02-14



1. System for determining a position of a moving transponder adapted to receive a substantially stationary magnetic field signal and to transmit a further signal, said system comprising:
a signal generating arrangement adapted to generate said stationary magnetic field signal for said transponder, said transponder being adapted to determine a plurality of signal strengths of said received magnetic field signal;
at least one signal receiving arrangement, adapted to receive said further signal of said transponder, said transponder being adapted to insert at least one message portion in said further signal indicative of at least one of said plurality of signal received signal strengths;
processing means adapted to determine said position in accordance with a plurality of said received signal strengths determined by said moving transponder.

2. System according to claim 1, wherein said further signal is an electromagnetic signal of relatively high frequency.

3. System according to claim 2, wherein said relatively high frequency relates to a carrier frequency range of 0.4-6 GHz.

4. System according to claim 1, wherein said signal generating arrangement and said signal receiving arrangement are decoupled from each other.

5. System according to claim 1, wherein said processing means are adapted to determine said position by construction or reconstruction of a position determination pattern on the basis of said plurality of received signal strengths.

6. System according to claim 1, wherein said transponder is adapted to insert a further message portion in said further signal comprising additional data.

7. System according to claim 6, wherein said signal generating arrangement is assigned an identification code and adapted to insert said identification code in said magnetic field signal, such that said transponder may employ said identification code as said additional data.

8. System according to claim 6, wherein said transponder comprises at least one sensor for probing at least one variable of and/or concerning an object associated with said transponder, such that said transponder may employ said variable as said additional data.

9. System according to claim 1, wherein the signal strengths of said plurality of signal strengths are associated with irregular time intervals.

10. Transponder being adapted for receiving a substantially stationary magnetic field signal, for determining a plurality of signal strengths of said received magnetic field signal and for transmitting a further signal having inserted at least one message portion indicative of at least one received signal strength.

11. Transponder according to claim 10, wherein said transponder is assigned an identification code and adapted to insert said identification code in a further message portion of said further signal.

12. Transponder according to claim 10, wherein said transponder comprises at least one sensor for probing at least one variable of and/or concerning an object associated with said transponder and is adapted to insert said variable in a further message portion of said further signal.

13. Transponder according to claim 10, wherein said transponder comprises an encryption module for encrypting said further signal.

14. Transponder signal transmitted by a transponder to a signal receiving arrangement in response to reception of a substantially stationary magnetic field signal of a signal generation arrangement, said transponder signal comprising at least one message portion indicative of at least one signal strength of said received magnetic field signal.

15. Transponder signal according to claim 14, wherein said transponder signal further comprises message portions relating to an identification code of said signal receiving arrangement and/or an identification code of said transponder and/or a variable concerning an object associated with said transponder.

16. Transponder signal according to claim 14, wherein said transponder signal is an encrypted transponder signal.

EPA Racing - #40 Supercharged Dodge Caliber

20 (edited by OnkelUdo 2023-02-23 03:20 PM)

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

The obvious answer is we replace timing and scoring with child labor and lots of little clickers.

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

kakarot1232001 wrote:

Almost feels like it basically need to be an RFID system, like EZPass in essence.

Yes and no. EZPass doesn't care if it grabs the transmission a little early or late for one car to the next, so long as it grabs them all. It doesn't matter if it picks up car A a few feet before car B. But that's not true in racing. We've had races decided by fractions of a second, to the point that position of the transponder on the car matters. This is one of the big pieces making a system like this hard to design, and what a bunch of patents are focused on.

Totally agree that it is not worth pissing off MyLaps for the entire series.


But I'm still up to throw CAD time at a DIY solution should anyone believe it's worth the time to do so.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
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Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

gus wrote:

The "old gen" transponders are very simple. They have no encryption and can be easily and replicated with cheap hardware.
...
- You could make your own "old gen" transponder, but you would need to pick an ID and hope no one is using it. This could again be thwarted by MyLaps if they have some check for valid transponder numbers, but some tracks aren't online and maybe the feature could be "disabled" or internet connectivity to MyLabs could be blocked by T&S.

This is the path of least resistance IMO.

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Everything dies baby that's a fact,
But maybe everything that dies someday comes back?

23

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

derekste wrote:
gus wrote:

The "old gen" transponders are very simple. They have no encryption and can be easily and replicated with cheap hardware.
...
- You could make your own "old gen" transponder, but you would need to pick an ID and hope no one is using it. This could again be thwarted by MyLaps if they have some check for valid transponder numbers, but some tracks aren't online and maybe the feature could be "disabled" or internet connectivity to MyLabs could be blocked by T&S.

This is the path of least resistance IMO.

100% agree. To make it work well someone needs to find an ID range that's unused but still works with the decoders. Hacked TR2s would be fun and a couple won't get noticed, but it's a short term solution for a few of us, not all of us.

Longer term, I'm sure that with cheap high-end SDR hardware and open source software becoming widely available, someone will hopefully build an entirely software based loop decoder that works with both (unencrypted) MyLabs transponders and an open source transponder. If someone wants to start playing with transponders, this is where you should focus your energy.

24 (edited by Guildenstern 2023-05-01 11:37 PM)

Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

I had talked with Roland about this back in 2013. The real solution is to make a completely DIFFERENT method for timing outside of MyLaps little Magnet and Squitter system.

With current technology the best alternative is GPS/GLONAS/Galileo multi system receivers feeding position data to a track side uplink. But by the time you do that, you're talking similar per unit as the current Transponder system and still need to make a cloud service and such for live timing.

Up side is it would be everywhere positioning. But Uplink of position data for 100+ cars would mean Line Of Sight, which would need a big antenna erection. Or an Aerostat balloon. Neither a suitable Lemons solution.

A newer idea could be super high speed QR code cameras looking down at the track from the Start/finish flag station or wherever the line is. More reasonable, but has a lot of other visibility factors.

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Re: AMB patent expiring... affordable transponders?

Guildenstern wrote:

Up side is it would be everywhere positioning. But Uplink of position data for 100+ cars would mean Line Of Sight, which would need a big antenna erection. Or an Aerostat balloon. Neither a suitable Lemons solution.

We've had good luck with telemetry over LoRa, without line of sight. At the ridge, down in the paddock with the big....ridge...blocking line-of-sight to the car, we got continuous coverage at all points on the track. The low bitrate is plenty for position information. It looks like a relatively new LR-FHSS spec makes it more friendly to have a big pile of devices all spamming the spectrum.

BSOD Racing, 1987 Fiat X1/9