• Registered: 2023-01-28
  • Posts: 2

Topic: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

We're finishing up our car for our first race and had a handful of questions about meeting rules.

1. For roll cage padding does it need to be SFI rated, or will any high density foam be fine?

2. The rule about battery mounting says there should be a metal bracket over the battery. I'm assuming this means the stock battery mount in our car does not meet rules since it just clamps the bottom of the battery. We were already thinking about relocating the battery to the trunk. Would it be much more work to do that since we'll already have to fabricate the metal bracket?

3. We removed the AC components from the engine bay. The lines that went through the firewall are disconnected at the stock passthrough. So you cannot see through the firewall, but you can see into the pipes that are still there. Will this need to be sealed, and if so what's the best/easiest way to do it?

4. Any general tips to help us fuck up less

Thanks.

  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,132

Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

1. Rule states: high density rollbar padding.

2. Dunno. But you raise a good point.
My Chevy has a bottom mount clamp also, and just for the sake of argument, I'll call that part of the factory body mount.
The rule (3.7.2.1) talks about brackets, frames, or factory body mounts.
And it specifically discusses "the top of the battery" bracket; and it does that just before the list of attempted battery hold downs which have failed, which is why I think the top bracket is listed.
I'd go to a junkyard and get a bracket with "j" hooks just to be sure to be compliant. Or a piece of bar stock - I mean, how hard could that be?
But I don't have that issue in any of my candidates.

3. Page 18 of "How to Not Fail Tech" shows firewall penetration solutions, and failures.

Safety equipment does not count toward the budget limit.

And you don't want to get there and fail Tech.

Good luck.

3 Reply by Zacks (edited by Zacks 2023-09-10 07:40 AM)

  • Zacks
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Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

Rules don't specify sfi padding but we made sure to get roll bar padding from a racing supplier to be sure, dunno if you could get away with pipe insulation. Not worth the risk.

Battery in trunk requires a sealed box or a bulkhead between driver compartment.  Seems like more work than a battery tie down

If your evaporator is still there I would expect that to be OK as there isn't actually a hole into the driver's compartment, just intonthe metal evaporator.  We pulled our evaporator and I used the holes to pass other things through then firewall instead of drilling more holes.

Fuck up less?  Idk maybe you can help us!  I will say oil we burn oil and this seems to be a theme with other teams, oil coolers, thicker oil than stock, overfilling and checking often are popular.  We plan to change oil between sat and sun.  We actually blew up our first race, only a half quart below full mark, oil sloshes out of the pan in corners (depending on how fast you cab corner) some oil pans are better at handling this than others.

Last race we got rained on super hard and oil had been OK since we ran thicker so we skipped the oil change sat night cause I didn't wanna get wet...  burned way more oil on day 2. Turns out endurance racing is hard on stuff lol.

  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 671

Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

LiamKluempke wrote:

We're finishing up our car for our first race and had a handful of questions about meeting rules.

1. For roll cage padding does it need to be SFI rated, or will any high density foam be fine?

2. The rule about battery mounting says there should be a metal bracket over the battery. I'm assuming this means the stock battery mount in our car does not meet rules since it just clamps the bottom of the battery. We were already thinking about relocating the battery to the trunk. Would it be much more work to do that since we'll already have to fabricate the metal bracket?

3. We removed the AC components from the engine bay. The lines that went through the firewall are disconnected at the stock passthrough. So you cannot see through the firewall, but you can see into the pipes that are still there. Will this need to be sealed, and if so what's the best/easiest way to do it?

4. Any general tips to help us fuck up less

Thanks.

1. Don't buy generic stuff, buy from real suppliers like Summit, Pegasys, or Jegs.  High density anywhere you could make contact.  Most manufacturers have SFI and non rated stuff that looks very similar.

2. It needs a metal strap across the top of the battery.  A piece of angle iron and two threaded rods is usually enough.  If it looks flimsy, tech will try and shake it, if it moves you will need to fix.

3. I would remove the hoses and just rivit some thin sheet metal over the holes.  Small holes you can fill with a bolt and washers.

4. Safety first, reliability next for your first race.  Check all your wear items such as hoses, belts, wheel bearings, ball joints, and fix anything suspect, or at least carry a spare.  If you can keep it cool and oiled you will have a better chance at finishing the race.  Brake pads are often overlooked by new teams, consider race pads.  Street pads can wear out in hours.  If you are unsure before or at the race, ask.  Lemons people are generally very helpful and want you to succeed.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • From: Columbus, Oh
  • Registered: 2020-05-19
  • Posts: 319

Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

Step 1 - Put on your helmet and hit yourself as hard in the head with a rollcage pipe as you can.
Step 2 - Realize that saving dollars isn't wise on safety equipment.
Step 3 - Go buy real rollcage padding (preferably SFI rated) from a real race supplier.

We have spent well more on safety equipment than anything else on our car.

All the stated minimums in the rules are only minimums, there is a big difference between pool noodles and real cage foam. Unfortunately you won't likely notice the difference until your head is making contact with it.

A lot of teams choose to go beyond the minimum for safety. Larger fire bottles, full containment seat, better belts, etc...

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)
  • VKZ24
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Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

rb92673 wrote:

Don't buy generic stuff, buy from real suppliers like Summit, Pegasus, or Jegs.  High density anywhere you could make contact.  Most manufacturers have SFI and non rated stuff that looks very similar.

IIRC, the SFI-rated stuff is made for contact with a helmet, so we have that in all the places your head could potentially make contact with a bar.    Hit it with your hand and you'll agree it's pretty hard.   We have the non-SFI stuff on the other bars.

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  • chaase
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Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

I thought if the battery was in the factory location, with the factory hardware then you didn't need to do anything. Best bet would be to send a note to John Pagel to get an answer.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

8 Reply by Zacks (edited by Zacks 2023-09-12 08:41 AM)

  • Zacks
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Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

"All batteries must be fully secured via proper, purpose-built battery brackets, battery frames, or factory body mounts. The top of the battery must be held down by at least one piece of substantial metal that’s strongly retained on both ends"


So "or factory body mounts" and then next line metal over the top.

I read that as sure you can use the factory plastic wedge to make it not wiggle, but it better be backed up by a bracket (do you really trust that plastic wedge in a rollover?)


So sure email pagel or just slap a metal strap over it.

  • From: Columbus, Oh
  • Registered: 2020-05-19
  • Posts: 319

Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

If you relocate the battery to the trunk, then you definitely want to secure it with proper heavy duty metal hardware.

Again, in a rollover how would you feel about a 40# car battery becoming a projectile and hitting you?

Safety gear is "free", spend wisely. You can make battery mounts very cheap with all-thread, bar stock, washers and wingnuts. Search amazon for CNRAQR Complete Aluminum Battery Box Relocation Kit Universal Billet Race Off Road Kit fit for all cars for inspiration.

Ours is a cheap plastic battery box basically sandwiched against the rear seat passenger floorboards with aluminum U-channel, all-thread and wingnuts. The allthread passes through the body and is reinforced with a welded on piece of flat iron on the bottom. When its in there and tightened down the entire car can be moved from pushing on the battery.

Remember also you need to cover your battery posts as well (this is what the cheap marine battery box we use is for), but I've seen people pass tech last minute with just a wrap job in electrical tape.

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)
  • From: SF BayArea/Land of Enchantment
  • Registered: 2012-01-22
  • Posts: 903

Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

KeiCarMike wrote:

<SNIP> When its in there and tightened down the entire car can be moved from pushing on the battery. .

This is actually the way the tech inspectors check your work....they want the whole car to rock when they shake the battery....

45+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

11 Reply by Zacks (edited by Zacks 2023-09-12 09:53 AM)

  • Zacks
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Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

BigBird wrote:

This is actually the way the tech inspectors check your work....they want the whole car to rock when they shake the battery....

It's a 2 for 1 battery safety and cheaty suspension lol

  • From: Camarillo, CA
  • Registered: 2021-03-26
  • Posts: 386

Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

LiamKluempke wrote:

We're finishing up our car for our first race and had a handful of questions about meeting rules.

1. For roll cage padding does it need to be SFI rated, or will any high density foam be fine?

2. The rule about battery mounting says there should be a metal bracket over the battery. I'm assuming this means the stock battery mount in our car does not meet rules since it just clamps the bottom of the battery. We were already thinking about relocating the battery to the trunk. Would it be much more work to do that since we'll already have to fabricate the metal bracket?

3. We removed the AC components from the engine bay. The lines that went through the firewall are disconnected at the stock passthrough. So you cannot see through the firewall, but you can see into the pipes that are still there. Will this need to be sealed, and if so what's the best/easiest way to do it?

4. Any general tips to help us fuck up less

Thanks.

1) any high density cage padding. Ours isn't SFI and passes tech... just don't use that low density foam noodle crap.
2) Good question, I'm not too sure. I'd imagine factory battery mounting should be OK. It never hurts to add a second clamp to be redundant. I've had a loose battery once that was shorting out on a bracket and I've taken battery mounting very seriously ever since. There's a reason every track day tech sheet and race tech sheet includes this.
3) We use scrap sheet metal and rivet or self tap it to the firewall. The holes don't need to be water tight, but should prevent fire from readily passing through your firewall.
4) read the rules a few times over and also the how not to fail tech. It seems like you already have, but reading it a few times over never hurts. If you are close enough to a race you aren't attending, you can bring the car to tech without racing to see if it passes. You can also sending pictures to John Pagel and he's always extremely helpful. Most rule violations are correctable at the track, but you really want to make sure your cage is good.

Full Ass Racing
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13 Reply by VKZ24 (edited by VKZ24 2023-09-13 05:16 AM)

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Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

chaase wrote:

I thought if the battery was in the factory location, with the factory hardware then you didn't need to do anything.

Yeah, we thought this too.  Our battery was in the factory location using the factory Honda mount.  The Honda mount captures the top side of one edge of the battery and has two rods that run diagonally to the opposite side holding it to the tray underneath.   Dale said the factory mount doesn't go across the top of the battery, so NO PASS FOR YOU!  I welded a piece of flat bar onto the factory mount that went across the top to with the opposite side being attached via an all-thread rod down to the factory tray.  To be a smart @ss, we painted it fluorescent orange and wrote "JUST FOR YOU DALE" on the top of it.  wink  No problems with tech since.

Some rules may have different interpretations, but at the end of the day, it's up to the tech inspector.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

VKZ24's Website

  • chaase
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Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

VKZ24 wrote:
chaase wrote:

I thought if the battery was in the factory location, with the factory hardware then you didn't need to do anything.

Yeah, we thought this too.  Our battery was in the factory location using the factory Honda mount.  The Honda mount captures the top side of one edge of the battery and has two rods that run diagonally to the opposite side holding it to the tray underneath.   Dale said the factory mount doesn't go across the top of the battery, so NO PASS FOR YOU!  I welded a piece of flat bar onto the factory mount that went across the top to with the opposite side being attached via an all-thread rod down to the factory tray.  To be a smart @ss, we painted it fluorescent orange and wrote "JUST FOR YOU DALE" on the top of it.  wink  No problems with tech since.

Some rules may have different interpretations, but at the end of the day, it's up to the tech inspector.

We haven't had the battery in the factory location for years. The last time we did was probably 15 years ago when we did our first build and the rules back then were a bit more loose.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

15 Reply by Zacks (edited by Zacks 2023-09-13 08:09 AM)

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Re: Help with not failing tech for a new team.

chaase wrote:

We haven't had the battery in the factory location for years. The last time we did was probably 15 years ago when we did our first build and the rules back then were a bit more loose.

I think they are talking about rules not applying of you leave it factory.  Like fuel tanks.  Ignore all fuel cell regs if you don't touch it, but as soon as it's not factory all these rules apply.

Although in this case maybe the metal on top rule applies regardless.

You can definitely move the battery but if visible from drivers compartment must be agm or in sealed battery box.