Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

Yokohama lists Mavis as a supplier for this new tire, as well as just about every new car dealer in my immediate area.

On a trip out of the area, a Mavis manager helped me get home after a blown out tire on the Interstate - inexpensively, as compared to what they could have done, and what I was expecting.

Subsequently (since I've mostly gone PnP for tires and wheels recently), the local manager at Mavis (_not_ the front desk sales people, but the manager) has been VERY helpful when I've needed it.

When prices for these come out, I'll be giving the local Mavis first crack at the sale, as compared to TireRack.

With the recent pending acquisition, Mavis will be the largest tire vendor in the country (industry news article).

I know Hankook makes at least one of their store brand tires.

There's an opportunity to make friends just waiting there, ready to roll.

27 (edited by duthehustle93 2023-06-28 10:02 AM)

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

rb92673 wrote:
therood wrote:
rb92673 wrote:

So get us hooked up with a Lemons buy direct program like other smaller series have!

Look, we get it and it's something Jay and I have been talking about a lot lately.

As far as we can tell, the program of the "other smaller series" is an avenue neither Lemons nor Yokohama have any interest in undertaking. We're not going to mandate people run a certain tire from a certain supplier, full stop.

We have explored other avenues with Yokohama--who like most tire companies, don't have a direct retail arm--and we have both found suppliers unwilling to take on any version of the program. We had gotten some traction with one supplier before the pandemic, but it was a pretty drawn-out process that got absolutely TNT'd by 2020. The complication of the logistics crunch during and immediately after the pandemic seems to have turned several such companies off to the idea of additional large-scale agreements (or maybe just turning them off of Lemons).

It's possible that people on the board are better connected than we and Yokohama's motorsports division are, though. If you know a Lemons person who runs a tire warehousing/supplier that is capable of shipping tires nationwide for a series with a potential current fleet of 1000+ vehicles, feel free to put me in touch with them.

Edit to add: Not trying to be snarky with that last bit. These kinds of things happen because people have an in with someone, but I also don't want to undersell the potential scale of any Lemons supply program.

Thanks for the reply and the inside information.  My post was slightly snarky.  At a significant difference in price, it is unlikely I will run Yokos over RS4s.  I also don't want to be a one tire series.

I will run Yokos if I can convince Spank to bring out the Mini again.  It's the only good tire you can get in 10"

I'm glad this is getting brought up, and I appreciate the insight and efforts into getting the sponsorship. Something is better than nothing, but yokohama doesn't make a good budget endurance tire. For example... I had AD08R, A052, Hoosier R7, and RS4 (same tire size/car/wheel size)... The A052 wore faster than the hoosier, and the AD08R wore ~3x faster than the RS4 (RS4 was also faster). Hopefully the AD09 is a step up, but the price means it has to somehow wear better and be faster than an RS4. I'm happy there is some form of sponsorship rather than nothing, I just wish yokohama had a relevant compound for us.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

therood wrote:
rb92673 wrote:
therood wrote:

They have been and it's out now: https://www.yokohamatire.com/tires/advan-neova-ad09

I only just saw the first two sets of the AD09 at Gingerman and they weren't on cars that ran all weekend so YMMV (literally), but depending on size, it's comparable in price to the Dunlop or the Continental option. I haven't read outright claims that it's meant for endurance racing, but Tire Rack's reviews last year lumped it in with the RS4 and the Continental. I asked for details and got redirected to their own page, but the construction looks pretty similar to some other 200TW endurance tires.

So get us hooked up with a Lemons buy direct program like other smaller series have!

Look, we get it and it's something Jay and I have been talking about a lot lately.

As far as we can tell, the program of the "other smaller series" is an avenue neither Lemons nor Yokohama have any interest in undertaking. We're not going to mandate people run a certain tire from a certain supplier, full stop.

We have explored other avenues with Yokohama--who like most tire companies, don't have a direct retail arm--and we have both found suppliers unwilling to take on any version of the program. We had gotten some traction with one supplier before the pandemic, but it was a pretty drawn-out process that got absolutely TNT'd by 2020. The complication of the logistics crunch during and immediately after the pandemic seems to have turned several such companies off to the idea of additional large-scale agreements (or maybe just turning them off of Lemons).

It's possible that people on the board are better connected than we and Yokohama's motorsports division are, though. If you know a Lemons person who runs a tire warehousing/supplier that is capable of shipping tires nationwide for a series with a potential current fleet of 1000+ vehicles, feel free to put me in touch with them.

Edit to add: Not trying to be snarky with that last bit. These kinds of things happen because people have an in with someone, but I also don't want to undersell the potential scale of any Lemons supply program.

does not need to be a 200tw tire, can be a 400tw and have its own class.  Something cheap, something from walmart?

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Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

What's all this talk of wearing out tires?  Our engines always grenade well before tires wear out.  Sounds like you guys have some first-world problems......  We usually have a ratio of 3 engines per one set of RS4s.

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

RS4 lasts twice as long but are hockey pucks for the second race.BTW, we had worn 615+ and decided to send it  Still won B with a P4 overall.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

31 (edited by ukemike 2024-01-03 03:46 PM)

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

I'm dredging this thread up because of something related that happened to our hankooks. 

We've run the Falkens for years now.  We were happy enough and they were typically cheapest. But when shopping for tires for the December Sonoma race I saw that the Falkens and Hankooks in our size were close in price. Based on this discussion and others like it we decided to go with the Hankooks for the slight performance improvement and the reportedly significant longevity improvement.

Again we were happy enough with driving them and we felt like we were getting great handling with them.  At the end of the day on sunday we noticed that the left front tire had several significant chunks missing on the outside shoulder of the tread. Cords were showing! All three other tires showed moderate wear. Has anyone else had any Hankook RS4s come apart like this? Other thoughts?

Our car is FWD about 2800# and moderately quick. We're the mylar accord.

32 (edited by duthehustle93 2024-01-03 04:18 PM)

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

ukemike wrote:

I'm dredging this thread up because of something related that happened to our hankooks. 

We've run the Falkens for years now.  We were happy enough and they were typically cheapest. But when shopping for tires for the December Sonoma race I saw that the Falkens and Hankooks in our size were close in price. Based on this discussion and others like it we decided to go with the Hankooks for the slight performance improvement and the reportedly significant longevity improvement.

Again we were happy enough with driving them and we felt like we were getting great handling with them.  At the end of the day on sunday we noticed that the left front tire had several significant chunks missing on the outside shoulder of the tread. Cords were showing! All three other tires showed moderate wear. Has anyone else had any Hankook RS4s come apart like this? Other thoughts?

Our car is FWD about 2800# and moderately quick. We're the mylar accord.

I've probably finished off around 6 sets of RS4's and all of them were retired due to chunking, typically on the inside shoulder. However, this usually happens at around 3/32nds (normally we'd run to cord), and after 50 race hours, so I've been very happy with them regardless. Usually they go from starting to chunk to "oh dear lord that's scary" in 5-8 hours so we get a pretty solid heads up. I've always setup our cars with a pyrometer for inside being hotter, so we usually have fairly aggressive camber (in the -2.5-4* range). My guess is that the bonding layer (or whatever keeps them from delaminating) fails from heat cycles or excessive heat.

How is your alignment? Maybe the hankooks want more camber than the falkens. I don't have RT615 experience, so just taking a guess that maybe the RS4's are more alignment-picky.

Edit: also, what width wheel/what width tire? On the miata we run 225 RS4 on 9" with a dialed alignment and always get 50 hours/even wear/chunk at the end. The 735i 245 RS4 on 9.5" and unfortunately I don't have much experience... really only have ~10hrs on the 735i setup but the alignment is not dialed in, car has more roll, tire has less stretch, and it did seem to be wearing quicker on the outside edge.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

ukemike wrote:

Again we were happy enough with driving them and we felt like we were getting great handling with them.  At the end of the day on sunday we noticed that the left front tire had several significant chunks missing on the outside shoulder of the tread. Cords were showing! All three other tires showed moderate wear. Has anyone else had any Hankook RS4s come apart like this? Other thoughts?

Our car is FWD about 2800# and moderately quick. We're the mylar accord.

We run an Acura Integra (2400#) and run the RS4s exclusively.  We have never had any chunking issue.  Sounds like an alignment problem?  FYI, we run about -2.5 degrees of camber up front, -1.5 in the rear, and zero toe on both.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

34 (edited by ukemike 2024-01-05 02:21 PM)

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

We have plenty of camber.  We have about -3.5deg in front and about -2.0 in the back.  Zero toe. I would have expected the excessive wear on the inside edge. With the Falkens we always had a bit more wear on the inside edge (measurable but barely visible)

Our tires are 205 55 16s.

What pressure do people run in the hankooks? Maybe we were underpressured?  I think we started with 29psi cold, which I think rose to 34 warm.

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

ukemike wrote:

What pressure do people run in the hankooks? Maybe we were underpressured?  I think we started with 29psi cold, which I think rose to 34 warm.

What does your car weigh?  We start at 28PSI cold in our 2400# Honda to hopefully stay under 40PSI when pushed hard.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

We have also run the RS4 for years on moderately to very quick FWD cars (among others) and never had a chunking issue, in fact we usually get 3 races until they are heat cycled out but likely still not worn out. 

Did you heat cycle the tires before use?  We do this pretty religiously and it should help your issue if you don't.  If you car can drive on the street that is the easiest way, if not then go out first thing on testing day and get them good and hot then take them off the car to rest for the day, reinstall them in the morning and you should be good to go.

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

I had tire rack heat cycle the two that I bought mounted on new wheels. I heat cycled the others on my wife's Honda Fit myself after getting them mounted.

Anyway I guess it's good that this isn't a common problem with these tires.

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

I'm curious about this "heat cycle before use" 

I have not heard this, and my team is not experienced enough/hasn't run a single tire long enough to have a problem.  (Like we swapped tires due to fear they where "cycled out" and would be slower but they still had tread.)

I thought tires got worse with more heat cycles?  I'm aware of a minimal break in to clear vulcanizing compounds from manufacturing, but I thought that was more for time attack/short session stuff.  Basically for endurance I don't care if it takes 3 laps to break in a tire, half of that would be parade laps anyway and I haven't found my groove on the first lap ect.  I always figured it was better to trade 1st lap speed for tires lasting longer (having less heat cycles on day2 or race 2)

Can someone educate me here?

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

Zacks wrote:

I'm curious about this "heat cycle before use" 

I have not heard this, and my team is not experienced enough/hasn't run a single tire long enough to have a problem.  (Like we swapped tires due to fear they where "cycled out" and would be slower but they still had tread.)

I thought tires got worse with more heat cycles?  I'm aware of a minimal break in to clear vulcanizing compounds from manufacturing, but I thought that was more for time attack/short session stuff.  Basically for endurance I don't care if it takes 3 laps to break in a tire, half of that would be parade laps anyway and I haven't found my groove on the first lap ect.  I always figured it was better to trade 1st lap speed for tires lasting longer (having less heat cycles on day2 or race 2)

Can someone educate me here?

Track rubber compounds do not have a lot of the hardening chemicals that your daily driver tires have. This means that they will melt, stretch and form micro tears much faster as a result.

Heat cycling essentially pre-stretches the tires and allows the compounds to form a durable molecular bond when they cool.

This is similar to what quenching hot steel does when blades are made, or even pre-stretching fabric on your clothes so they don't get wavy and wrinkly when they're washed repeatedly.

The RS-4 issues with "chunking" seemed to be at least somewhat related to this, although chunking is the most severe version of the side effect. Most people will just see a loss in durability or a lot of extra cording. Of course how your car is setup (camber, weight, etc..) has a lot to do with that anyways.

FWIW, our heat cycle plan is to run the last practice session on Friday with new tires, race on them in the morning Saturday, and then we rotate front to back after Saturday. Seems to work great for us (azenis 615)

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

Ive run a 275, 285, and a 295 wide rs4.    Have not had any of them chunk at all.    Been anywhere from 1.9 to 3.8 degrees of negative camber.  7 - 8 degrees of caster and 1/8 out to 1/8 in of toe.

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

hkerekes wrote:

Ive run a 275, 285, and a 295 wide rs4.    Have not had any of them chunk at all.    Been anywhere from 1.9 to 3.8 degrees of negative camber.  7 - 8 degrees of caster and 1/8 out to 1/8 in of toe.

I witnessed the chunking first hand at an AER race, so I know it exists. Maybe just bad batches for a while. These were <4 hr old brand new tires with significant square shaped chunks just gone from the tread. Not cording. Not locked up/squared off. Just falling apart.

Not trying to ding them, just saying that it was (hopefully past tense) an actual real issue.

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

We're in the double digits of sets of RS4's gone through (just barely, maybe 10) and they are consistently retired from chunking. However, this is after ~50 hours, at 2/32nds of tread depth, and they also seem to turn into bricks and virtually stop wearing at this tread depth for us. We aren't complaining, that's just how they die for us. We have 2.5 sets of wheels so I'm sure we've inadvertently heat cycled (I think we've even done it on purpose once or twice) and it may have helped, but certainly didn't get rid of the issue as all of them chunk at the end of life.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

"So get us hooked up with a Lemons buy direct program like other smaller series have!"

"...does not need to be a 200tw tire, can be a 400tw and have its own class.  Something cheap, something from walmart?"



Have you checked with Cosmo Tires?  They might be interested in expanding their motorsports program as a Lemons sponsor.  Small company, trying to grow, has a motorsports program...

For teams looking for an economical racing tire, the MuchoMachos are 300TW.   They aren't quite as sticky as the RS4s and 615ks if you are out for the overall win, but they are the perfect tire for those of us who are consistently mid-pack, or for those looking for good tires at a great price. There are several teams in the southeast running Cosmos.  And we do fine with them when we don't otherwise take ourselves out of the running: our Beetles have finished top 3 in C Class a half dozen times and  we even managed an 11th overall/10th in A Class (our Miata) and a C Class win (Beetle) at MSR last November running Cosmos.

We mostly buy ours through Cosmo directly (we have a semi-sponsorship), but have also bought them on Ebay Motors, Amazon, and/or Walmart online when we didn't get the Cosmo order submitted in time. They are approx $300-$325 for a set of 4 (including shipping) from online sources, dependiing on size. 

Of course, Lemons' preferred vendor is Ebay Motors.

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

On the topic if being competitive,  do those of you running rs4s until they chunk consider that "being competitive"  I've seen posts from people about new rs4s every day or every race.  I would assume anyone running a tire until it's dead and not a specific number of races or heat soaks is accepting a reduction in pace and is not competitive. 

I don't have enough experience to know so I'm curious how many of you who consider yourself competitive (weather that's overall, class or just generally competitive but not winning) how many of you run tires into the ground?

I mean a 18 month old tire with 2-4 races on it has to be slower right?

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

Correct, pace is noticeably worse every race, with the 3rd race on the set being way slower. I usually buy used sets off those who care enough to run a new set every race. We don't care about being competitive; we're usually top 15 and have been top 10 a few times, but the jump to trying to win just isn't worth the extra money and sacrifice of fun, IMO.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

Zacks wrote:

[snip]I don't have enough experience to know so I'm curious how many of you who consider yourself competitive [snip]?

Ouch ...

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

We have won a race on RS4s that were decently used.  Agree that after the 3rd race they really drop off, even if not worn down that much, but they are still decent, just not race winning.

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia

Re: Hankook RS4 vs RT615k+ longevity

another datapoint for RS4...

318ti, stock 4 cylinder power, 2500 lbs with driver, 245/40R17 tire

We run a single set of tires for two races, rotating front to back at the end of Saturday and flipping them on the wheels between races. The one time we tried to get a third race out of a set, traction fell off a cliff an hour or so into the race on Sunday. So 45 or so hours of good grip, then things went south quickly.

That third race was 2023 Pitt, where we led most of the day on Saturday, swapping back and forth with the eventual winners for the last hour or so, finishing day one just a second behind them. We finished the race on Sunday in second place but three laps down. We couldn't run our typical laptimes with the loss of traction, which was mainly felt in the rear of our car during transients like the turns 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 esses where we usually make all our speed.

#330 Rubber City Racing
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