• From: Jackson, Mississippi
  • Registered: 2009-05-08
  • Posts: 45

Topic: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

I may have access to a "free car" with a KBB resale value of $1500. In order to get the value down to $500 the car will have to be stripped waaaay down. The body is in good shape; so we were thinking of selling the front bumper, front fenders, doors/windows, and rear hatch/windshield. One of the team members has a welding shop, so we were thinking of building a protective frame to replace the missing pieces.

Rule 3.13 states "Added structural elements that extend past the original bodywork line are not allowed." Are "nerf bars" allowed if we keep the tubing inside the original bodywork perimeter? Will the protective bars be enough to satisfy rule 3.28 (fenders required)? I am pretty sure I saw a picture on Jalopnik of an E30 with steel tubing in place of missing fenders. Can we make a tube steel bumper as long as we keep it within the original dimensions?

Also, none of the rules say anything about requiring doors. Rule 3.1 does say that the roll cage must also protect the driver side door, but are you allowed to run without doors? We would extend the roll cage to include a 3-bar structure with sheet metal welded on to fill the gap from the missing door.

Sorry if these are silly questions. Thanks in advance.

  • JThw8
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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Disregard pictures from previous races as the fenders required rule is somewhat new and some photos are prior to this rule.

A better route is to document that it is really a free car and prove it and not worry about stripping it down to nothing.  Or at least look for comparable vehicles for sale, KBB means very little.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  • From: Jackson, Mississippi
  • Registered: 2009-05-08
  • Posts: 45

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Very good advice JThw8. I will look for comparable vehicles for sale in the area (Mississippi/Louisiana) and print out the advertisements for our records.

I feel that the biggest problem with our "free car" is that it was (very recently) a respectable daily driver for one of our team members. He bought it new and has driven it for the past 11 years. Since one of our team members is the original owner, we figured we needed some sort of baseline value to work with.

  • Registered: 2010-02-14
  • Posts: 577

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Rule 4.1.1 might give you a little grief .....

  • From: Jackson, Mississippi
  • Registered: 2009-05-08
  • Posts: 45

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Yeah, we are trying to be honest and address that issue without being evasive (hence this post). We could have ripped it apart, hit it a few times with a hammer, and spray painted it with primer if we wanted to be sneaky. We would rather figure it out now to see if we need a different car rather than pissing off the almighty judges.

  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

We don't give a rat's ass about the KBB value.  You're totally allowed to build nerf bars inside the lines of the original bodywork; that rule was meant to prevent Mad Max-style wheel cages, radiator spikes, etc.

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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Not to ruin your surprise but mebbe if you let us in on what the vehicle is we could offer some more advice.

I mean if you tell us its his DD miata we'll laugh at you

but if you say its his flogged Ford Aspire we'll say go for $0

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  • From: Jackson, Mississippi
  • Registered: 2009-05-08
  • Posts: 45

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Thanks MM for filling me in on the spirit of the rules. That helps a lot. Chop shop, ahoy!

JT, it's a 2000 Chevy Camaro (base model V6) with 140k miles and zero factory options. We plan to turn the rear end into a pickup bed and call it an El Camaro.

If that car seems like it will garner a few BS laps, there is an abandoned Geo Metro parked outside his house that the New Orleans police marked with a tow-away warning 5 months ago. They seem to have forgotten about the car, so it may get a new lease on life.

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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Duncan345 wrote:

If that car seems like it will garner a few BS laps, there is an abandoned Geo Metro parked outside his house that the New Orleans police marked with a tow-away warning 5 months ago. They seem to have forgotten about the car, so it may get a new lease on life.

GO FOR THE METRO!!!

And if you are in New Orleans you should come hook up with us at the end of the BABE rally on June 11th, just look for the parade of crapcans.  Bring a few bux and you can probably have your pick of some choice Lemons material there too wink

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

A V6 (i.e. rent-a-car) Camaro turned into an El Camino would (probably) be just fine with us. A Metro would be good, too. The Swift GT-engined Metro at MSR last weekend was very quick (2:05 best lap, pretty close to E30 quick)... until it blew up.

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  • From: Jackson, Mississippi
  • Registered: 2009-05-08
  • Posts: 45

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

We aren't mechanically inclined enough to drop a Hayabusa engine into the Metro... and the Metro is also of questionable ownership. It sounds like we might roll with the rent-a-car El Camaro. If we collect some BS laps, so be it. We are planning on winning the beer drinking competition, not the race.

About half of the team will be spectators at the May 1-2 race in Louisiana to check it out. Hopefully we can run the November 20-21 Laissez les Crapheaps Roulez race. I'm getting married on November 6, so there should be plenty of time from 11/6 to 11/20 to build up the desire to kill myself on a race track.

  • From: Houston (Spring) Texas
  • Registered: 2010-02-22
  • Posts: 1,624

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

put the metro engine and wheels on the camaro.

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

The v6 will east itself... the metro is an abandoned car... DO BOTH!!!

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"
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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

I'd say yank the front fascia, and pull the doors. replace the side doors with some pop-riveted sheet metal, and hell, in Ohio a 2x4 is a legal bumper. Should be able to get some money back from that stuff, then you could make a theoretical value within reason above the car's actual $0 value and say "this is what we sold" Front Fascia $125; Doors x2  $150 or something like that. No need for a full tear-down, and if you're posing it as something with a truck bed the redneck bumper should help tongue

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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Serj wrote:

I'd say yank the front fascia, and pull the doors. replace the side doors with some pop-riveted sheet metal, and hell, in Ohio a 2x4 is a legal bumper. Should be able to get some money back from that stuff, then you could make a theoretical value within reason above the car's actual $0 value and say "this is what we sold" Front Fascia $125; Doors x2  $150 or something like that. No need for a full tear-down, and if you're posing it as something with a truck bed the redneck bumper should help tongue

If he does go with the 4th gen idea.. here are some numbers to munch on:

Engine Compartment

460.9 lbs - LS1 (5.7L) Manual with oil and flywheel
428.8 lbs - L36 (3.8L) Manual with oil and flywheel
405.5 lbs - LS1 (5.7L) Auto with oil and flexplate
391.2 lbs - L36 (3.8L) Auto with oil and flexplate
40 lbs - Optima red-top battery (sounds heavy???)
32 lbs - Madman manual rack & PA chromemoly k-member
25 lbs - Pair of stock manifolds with AIR tubes off LT1
18 lbs - AC compressor with lines
18 lbs - ATI 3 core F-Body intercooler
17 lbs - AC compressor with lines
14 lbs - Dyna Battery
12 lbs - Plastic insulation on firewall
12 lbs - ATI 2 core F-Body intercooler
11 lbs - Full windshield washer reservoir
10 lbs - ABS unit
9 lbs - AC condensor
9 lbs - AC condensor with accumulator
8-9 lbs - OEM motor mounts (pair)
8 lbs - Bracket for PS/AC compressor
7 lbs - Competition Engineer solid motor mounts
7 lbs - AIR pump hoses and bracket
4.4 lbs - Cruise control
3 lbs - EGR valve and aluminum tube
3 lbs - Wiper motor
3 lbs - BMR 2 point strut tower brace
3 lbs - All exhaust heat shields
2 lbs - Factory oil cooler lines
1.5 lbs - Horns (pair)
1lbs - Heater core lines

Drive Train

190 lbs - Moser 9" (3.250 bearing) w/35 spline axles, Strange nodular iron section, full spool, 3:70 gears, no oil
135 lbs - Stock 7.5 rear end w/3.73 gears and oil
40 lbs - Centerforce heavy flywheel
35 lbs - Vigilante torque coverter new in box (inc box!)
34 lbs - Steel 2pc V6 driveshaft including center bearing carrier
28 lbs - A TH400 with 9" converter is 28 lbs lighter than the 4L60E
20.5 lbs - LT1 stock flywheel
20 lbs - LT1 stock flywheel
16 lbs - Stock steel LT1 driveshaft
12.5 lbs - TPiS lightweight flywheel
12.2 lbs - 3rd gen aluminum 1LE driveshaft
12 lbs - LPE aluminum driveshaft
11.5 lbs - Stock aluminum LS1 driveshaft
10 lbs - RK Sport aluminum 1pc driveshaft
10 lbs - ??? brand lightweight flywheel
4 lbs - Transmission tunnel insulation

Wheels & Tires
 
58 lbs - AFS chrome 17x11 GS offset wheel with new Dunlop SP8000 315/35/17 tire
56 lbs - AFS chrome 17x11 GS offset wheel with BALD Dunlop SP8000 315/35/17 tire :-)
56 lbs - 18x9 chrome Cobra R replica wheels with 285/35/18 tires
55 lbs - AFS silver 17x11 GS offset ZR1 wheel with new tire
55 lbs - 17" Prime chrome 5 Stars with 275/40 tire
55 lbs - 17" chrome Firewhawk wheel with new tire
54.5 lbs - Replica SS wheel with Khumo 712 275/40 tire
52 lbs - AFS chrome 17x9.5 ZR1 wheel with new Dunlop SP8000 275/40/17 tire
50 lbs - OZ Monte Carlo 17x9.5 with 1/3 tread 275 GSC
50 lbs - AFS polished 17x11 GS offset ZR1 wheel with new 315 BFG Comp TA drag radial
48 lbs - 16x8 stock chrome 5 star with Kuhma Estca Supra 712 tires (V rated)
45 lbs - 99 TA stock 16" chrome wheels and tire (SZ 50)
44 lbs - 93-96 Camaro wheel with Nitto drag
41.5 lbs - 93-96 Camaro wheel with bald 255 BFG drag radial
40 lbs - Weld Pro Star (15x10) with new Hoosier QTP 28x11.5-15 (no tube)
35.3 lbs - New Dunlop SP8000 315/35/17 tire
31 lbs - New Dunlop SP8000 315/35/17 tire - hmm?
31 lbs - Kumho Victoracers 275/40/17 tire
30 lbs - New Dunlop SP8000 275/40/17 tire
29 lbs - 97 to 99 Vette standard rear wheel
28 lbs - Kumho Victoracers 315/35/17 tire
27 lbs - Weld Pro Stars (15x3.5) with Cooper 165R tire
27 lbs - 18x9 chrome Cobra R replica wheel
25.5 lbs - Hoosier A3S03 Autocross tire 315/35-17
25 lbs - Firestone SZ50EP stock size tire
25 lbs - New Futura 275/40/17 tire
24.5 lbs - Goodyear GSC 245/50/16 tire
24 lbs - 97 to 99 Vette magnesium rear wheel
22.5 lbs - Hoosier A3S03 Autocross tire 275/40-17
22 lbs - 90 Vette stock wheel 17x9.5
22 lbs - Hoosier R3S03 275/45/16 tire
22 lbs - 01 Camaro SS 17x9 wheel
22 lbs - 2 piece Centerline Sabre type 17x9.5 wheel
21.5 lbs - 97 to 99 Vette 18x9.5 wheel
20.06 lbs - 00 Vette standard rear wheel
20.5 lbs - OE ZR1 17x9.5 wheel
20.5 lbs - AFS replica 16" SS wheel
20.1lbs - 97 to 99 Vette magnesium front wheel
20 lbs - CCW 17x10 wheel
20 lbs - CCW 17x11 wheel
20 lbs - 3 piece Centerline Sabre 17x9.5 wheel
19.5 lbs - 1996 stock Camaro wheel
19.5 lbs - Stock 5 star 16" Z28 wheel
19 lbs - 2000 stock Camaro wheel
19 lbs - 97 to 99 Vette 17x8.5 wheel
18-19 lbs - Centerline 17x9.5 wheel
18.08 lbs - 00 Vette standard front wheel
18 lbs - Fiske FM5 17x9.5 wheel
17 lbs - 2000+ stock Camaro wheel (different than above?)
13 lbs - Weld Pro Star (15x8)
10 lbs - Weld Pro Star (15x3.5)
10 lbs - Bogart DragStar 15x10 racing wheel

Interior
 
65 lbs - Wolfe weld-in 6pt. roll bar
42 lbs - 1997 Camaro front leather power seat
40 lbs - Carpet with the sound deadener
38 lbs - Spare tire and jack
36 lbs - Spare tire and jack
34 lbs - Passenger seat
32 lbs - 1997 Camaro front leather manual seat
29 lbs - Rear seats
24 lbs - Heater core
20 lbs - Front & rear seatbelts with bolts
17 lbs - Passenger airbag with bracket
10 lbs - Driver side airbag
9 lbs - Center console (Trans Am)
7 lbs - Under dash AC plastic moulding
7 lbs - Bose speakers (95 Z28)
6.9 lbs - 6 way power seats over manual seats
5 lbs - Stereo
5 lbs - Rear pair of seat belts and retractors
4 lbs - Rear panel with speaker
4 lbs - Rear hatch cover / divider
2.7 lbs - Power windows over manual windows
2.7 lbs - Sunvisor (pair)
2 lbs - Sunvisor (pair)
2 lbs - Glove Box
2 lbs - Rear hatch cover
2 lbs - Insulation glued to dash
2 lbs - Factory Monsoon amp
1.8 lbs - Power door locks over manual locks
1.8 lbs - Rear floor mats
1.3 lbs - Remote truck release motor
1 lbs - Rearview mirror
0.4 lbs - Keyless entry option over no keyless entry
0.4 lbs - Rear window defogger

Exterior

44 lbs - 93-97 Stock Camaro hood with insulation
31 lbs - Rear bumper reinforcement and brackets
23 lbs - Front bumper reinforcement and brackets
12.3 lbs - T-tops
4 lbs - Front impact absorber
3 lbs - Wipers
2.7 lbs - Z28 fog lamps
1.8 lbs - Body side mouldings
 
Suspension

33 lbs - Suspension Techniques 35mm front sway bar
14 lbs - Front sway bar and brackets
14 lbs - 2002 stock torque arm
13 lbs - Stock rear springs
13 lbs - Front sway bar
12 lbs - Edelbrock torque arm
8 lbs - Rear sway bar with end links
2 lbs - Rear spring perches
2 lbs - Front sway bar mount

Exhaust

29 lbs - Mufflex rear sec (over-axle pipe, muffler, outlet)

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"
  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2010-02-10
  • Posts: 150

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

MurileeMartin wrote:

A V6 (i.e. rent-a-car) Camaro turned into an El Camino would (probably) be just fine with us. A Metro would be good, too. The Swift GT-engined Metro at MSR last weekend was very quick (2:05 best lap, pretty close to E30 quick)... until it blew up.

Yup its basically a drop-in swap too, minus a little wiring.  Just be sure there aren't any "questionable" parts on said engine, or you'll take weeks to get it running right, then jump time at the track and smack valves.  We had a fun night helping them get the spare motor in it!

Team monstaRX-7: #91 1991 Mazda RX-7 convertible with a 5.0, WHAT COULD GO WRONG?
Races: 2010 Gator-O-Rama(DNF, blown motor, "Trailer on Saturday"), Oct 2011 Yee-Haw Its Lemons(actually finished the race! Judge's Choice)
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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Stang Man wrote:
MurileeMartin wrote:

A V6 (i.e. rent-a-car) Camaro turned into an El Camino would (probably) be just fine with us. A Metro would be good, too. The Swift GT-engined Metro at MSR last weekend was very quick (2:05 best lap, pretty close to E30 quick)... until it blew up.

Yup its basically a drop-in swap too, minus a little wiring.  Just be sure there aren't any "questionable" parts on said engine, or you'll take weeks to get it running right, then jump time at the track and smack valves.  We had a fun night helping them get the spare motor in it!

Was it the JDM or USDM engine that fried?

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"
  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2010-02-10
  • Posts: 150

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Riktor wrote:
Stang Man wrote:
MurileeMartin wrote:

A V6 (i.e. rent-a-car) Camaro turned into an El Camino would (probably) be just fine with us. A Metro would be good, too. The Swift GT-engined Metro at MSR last weekend was very quick (2:05 best lap, pretty close to E30 quick)... until it blew up.

Yup its basically a drop-in swap too, minus a little wiring.  Just be sure there aren't any "questionable" parts on said engine, or you'll take weeks to get it running right, then jump time at the track and smack valves.  We had a fun night helping them get the spare motor in it!

Was it the JDM or USDM engine that fried?

The JDM one.  Best we can tell, the spring in the tensioner caught the lower timing gear and got sucked in, allowing the belt grooves to disengage from the gear and jumping time.  They'll have a better idea once the top end is disassembled, though.

Team monstaRX-7: #91 1991 Mazda RX-7 convertible with a 5.0, WHAT COULD GO WRONG?
Races: 2010 Gator-O-Rama(DNF, blown motor, "Trailer on Saturday"), Oct 2011 Yee-Haw Its Lemons(actually finished the race! Judge's Choice)
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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Stang Man wrote:
Riktor wrote:
Stang Man wrote:

Yup its basically a drop-in swap too, minus a little wiring.  Just be sure there aren't any "questionable" parts on said engine, or you'll take weeks to get it running right, then jump time at the track and smack valves.  We had a fun night helping them get the spare motor in it!

Was it the JDM or USDM engine that fried?

The JDM one.  Best we can tell, the spring in the tensioner caught the lower timing gear and got sucked in, allowing the belt grooves to disengage from the gear and jumping time.  They'll have a better idea once the top end is disassembled, though.

I couldn't remember. I spoke with one of the team for a bit before he got pulled back into swapping over all the accessories.

Are we far enough off topic?

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"
  • From: Seattle, WA
  • Registered: 2009-10-28
  • Posts: 2,111

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Riktor wrote:

Are we far enough off topic?

I never did get that sofa from the photography dude.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
  • From: Golden, CO
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 968

Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

^^^^
I don't know why, but I think that should be your signature.  If you don't use it, I will.

1978 AMC Pacer - The Blue Flag Special
BFE GP '12 - IOE
BFE GP '13 - Co-Organizer's Choice w/ Speed Holes Wrenching
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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Rockford Brodie wrote:

^^^^
I don't know why, but I think that should be your signature.  If you don't use it, I will.

The fact that he doesn't have a signature makes it more fitting for him to take it. A custom CT for me would be awesome... I know the admins can do it... DOOO EETTTT!!!!

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"
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Re: Rules 3.13 and 3.28 - bodywork & nerf bars

Just build the El Cameroino  nobody wants v6 anyways you might get bonus laps if you mount 2 kegs in bed with 20 ft hosess to drive around Paddock sharing the Natural Light

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